Are the Democrats about to cook up a fake war

[plasticbertrand]

No, this statement, the one you claimed I was "Wrong" about: "I don't disagree in regards to how Western leaders and media portray what's going in the world, however Putin isn't exactly a champion for the truth, media integrity and transparency either. If anything is he is far more aggressive in pursuit of the narratives that he wants to push. "

Hence Putin basically murdering and imprisoning everyone who challenges him.


And how is that relevant to the statement I quoted above, the same one you said I was wrong about? PRCD is the one who mentioned Ivan the Terrible, not me, so maybe you should take this up with him?


Which is exactly what I said


Ok great, glad we can agree. Maybe take that up with him? All of my posts in this thread are me disagreeing with him and there is very little we agree on.

You regularly reply to posters with ammunition based on the words of others. I can't think of anything more dishonest than that

Okay never mind, I was responding to PRCD and not you. (Edited)

I quoted your post by mistake.

I was all like, why is grapeape so @ me this morning.

Free Ukraine!

 

[grapedrink]

Seems like a stalemate with the Russians gaining a little ground.

Exactly what I expected. Which is why the machine is happy to throw money at it, because it's a chance to slowly bleed out Russia just like our enemies did to us in the Middle East for the last 2 decades. At least we finally learned something

Due to demographic winter in the Infertile Crescent, the era of large-scale sweeping conquests of other countries' territories seems to be over.

Let's hope so.

 

[sussle]

the Ukes advance:

Ukraine troops raise flag over railway hub as advance threatens to turn into rout

Ukrainian officials shared photos showing troops raising the nation's flag over the main railway city that has supplied Russian forces in northeastern Ukraine.

www.cnbc.com

 

[StuAzole]

the Ukes advance:

Ukraine troops raise flag over railway hub as advance threatens to turn into rout

Ukrainian officials shared photos showing troops raising the nation's flag over the main railway city that has supplied Russian forces in northeastern Ukraine.

www.cnbc.com

But Russia must be feared! Biden is bring on Ww3! Yeeeee!

 

[mundus]

Check the scoreboard Putin fanbois!

 

[mundus]

dble

 

[hammies]

Things are going pretty badly for the Russkies in Ukraine.
I wonder how long it's gonna be before Putin's generals start accidentally falling out of high-rise windows?

 

[StuAzole]

Things are going pretty badly for the Russkies in Ukraine.
I wonder how long it's gonna be before Putin's generals start accidentally falling out of high-rise windows?

Don’t you see? This is what putin wanted! Now he’s free to use all his nukes! Because he’s so strong and Russia is so mighty! What a mistake to fight back!

 

[Subway]

It really was an enormous mistake by Putin. As soon as they met such organized and stiff resistance he should have marched his troops home

 

[PRCD]

It really was an enormous mistake by Putin. As soon as they met such organized and stiff resistance he should have marched his troops home

From the Russian point-of-view, they had no choice - Ukraine joining NATO was a line in the sand because it enabled the US to position short-range tactical nukes within range of Moscow and NATO troops on their border. The Russians have been saying this for 20 years, but actually their view on the Ukraine's relationship with the West is unchanged in 100 years. Pyotr Wrangel made statements identical to Putin's in assessment of the German invasion of Ukraine in WWI and installation of a puppet government. From the Russian point-of-view, Ukraine is theirs. I quoted this part of Wrangel's book pages back.

From our point-of-view circa 2014 to present, Russia is an existential threat to the Global American Empire (GAE) - we must defeat Putin in the Ukraine to protect globalist neoliberal technocratic managerialism (democracy). This is a threat to "democracy" because Zelenksy was elected purely by the will of the people (PAY NO ATTENTION TO HIS OFFSHORE ACCOUNTS AND SPONSORSHIPS FROM WESTERN AGENCIES AND UKRAINIAN OLIGARCHS).

Neither side could budge on the issue of Ukrainian neutrality with respect to NATO. To war!

If you look at things from a purely military point-of-view, you're right. But if nations always did that, we would've pulled out of Afghanistan in 2003 and never have invaded Iraq. The Anglophone propaganda around the Ukraine/Russian war right now reminds me of this:

Iraq War - Surge, Coalition, Insurgency

Iraq War - Surge, Coalition, Insurgency: A temporary increase in the number of U.S. troops in 2007 was known as the surge. The Sunni Awakening was a movement to help counter other insurgents, particularly those affiliated with al-Qaeda. In 2010 WikiLeaks published documents under the title “Iraq...

www.britannica.com

The Germans and French are saying something much different. Biden wasn't wrong about the long, dark winter - he was just early.

An extra point here is that Putin simply invaded with too few people due to domestic concerns - the population opposed a general mobilization. That may not always be the case. Russia is still 3-4x the size as the Ukraine with identical birthrates. This can still spill into a larger war, just like WWI.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569643714821111808

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569643308049121280

 

[StuAzole]

From the Russian point-of-view, they had no choice - Ukraine joining NATO was a line in the sand because it enabled the US to position short-range tactical nukes within range of Moscow and NATO troops on their border. The Russians have been saying this for 20 years, but actually their view on the Ukraine's relationship with the West is unchanged in 100 years. Pyotr Wrangel made statements identical to Putin's in assessment of the German invasion of Ukraine in WWI and installation of a puppet government. From the Russian point-of-view, Ukraine is theirs. I quoted this part of Wrangel's book pages back.

From our point-of-view circa 2014 to present, Russia is an existential threat to the Global American Empire (GAE) - we must defeat Putin in the Ukraine to protect globalist neoliberal technocratic managerialism (democracy). This is a threat to "democracy" because Zelenksy was elected purely by the will of the people (PAY NO ATTENTION TO HIS OFFSHORE ACCOUNTS AND SPONSORSHIPS FROM WESTERN AGENCIES AND UKRAINIAN OLIGARCHS).

Neither side could budge on the issue of Ukrainian neutrality with respect to NATO. To war!

If you look at things from a purely military point-of-view, you're right. But if nations always did that, we would've pulled out of Afghanistan in 2003 and never have invaded Iraq. The Anglophone propaganda around the Ukraine/Russian war right now reminds me of this:

Iraq War - Surge, Coalition, Insurgency

Iraq War - Surge, Coalition, Insurgency: A temporary increase in the number of U.S. troops in 2007 was known as the surge. The Sunni Awakening was a movement to help counter other insurgents, particularly those affiliated with al-Qaeda. In 2010 WikiLeaks published documents under the title “Iraq...

www.britannica.com

The Germans and French are saying something much different. Biden wasn't wrong about the long, dark winter - he was just early.

An extra point here is that Putin simply invaded with too few people due to domestic concerns - the population opposed a general mobilization. That may not always be the case. Russia is still 3-4x the size as the Ukraine with identical birthrates. This can still spill into a larger war, just like WWI.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569643714821111808

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569643308049121280

Ukraine wasn’t joining NATO.

And Putin did have a choice. They were much more powerful before he showed how weak they are.

 

[PRCD]

Ukraine wasn’t joining NATO.

If true, why not just sign a joint agreement that Ukraine is officially neutral?

And Putin did have a choice. They were much more powerful before he showed how weak they are.

Compared to what? We just lost to the Pashtuns after 20 years and have you heard about the Moqtada Al Sadr's overrun of our green zone last week? How's Europe doing on power this winter?

It's all relative, maaaaaan!

 

[StuAzole]

If true, why not just sign a joint agreement that Ukraine is officially neutral?

Compared to what? We just lost to the Pashtuns after 20 years and have you heard about the Moqtada Al Sadr's overrun of our green zone last week? How's Europe doing on power this winter?

It's all relative, maaaaaan!

Why? “Sign this or we’ll invade” is hardly reason to sign.

And you’d have a point if we rolled tanks into Canada with the intent to destroy but lost. We took Iraq in days, but never had the same commitment in Afghanistan.

 

[hammies]

Putin has always wanted to rebuild the USSR. He already has Belarus in his back pocket. Ukraine has always been coveted by the Russians and was the logical first step, especially since they voted in a pro-west government and so on. Putin gambled that there would be only token resistance and much handwringing in NATO, but he would ultimately get away with it with minimal hassle. Having then proved that the West in general and NATO in particular to not have any guts, he would then set his sights on the Baltics and before long he would be declared the President of the New Soviet Politburo.

Or so he thought. His whole strategy is now in the toilet, he lost his pal in DC, NATO is stronger than ever, his military has been embarrassed, and things aren't coming up roses for old Vlad.

 

[PRCD]

Why? “Sign this or we’ll invade” is hardly reason to sign.

You don't think preventing an invasion is a good reason to sign if - by your admission - Ukraine had no intention of joining NATO anyway and war was a certainty? War was a better outcome, in your opinion?

And you’d have a point if we rolled tanks into Canada with the intent to destroy but lost. We took Iraq in days, but never had the same commitment in Afghanistan.

Was Putin's intention to destroy? Why didn't he start flattening Kiev immediately?
We had identical outcomes in Afghanistan and Iraq as the British empire 100 years earlier when it was declining, btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Bell

 

[Sharkbiscuit]

You don't think preventing an invasion is a good reason to sign if - by your admission - Ukraine had no intention of joining NATO anyway and war was a certainty? War was a better outcome, in your opinion?
Was Putin's intention to destroy? Why didn't he start flattening Kiev immediately?

IMHO this was a gambit to bolster flagging domestic political support for Putin/United Russia. Appealing to a Russian's nationalism seems to be analogous to appealing to an American's bank account.

I can't fathom anyone in their right mind fearing a US/EU/NATO invasion of Mother Russia proper. Napoleon and Hitler were two of the most (temporarily) successful Western expansionists and both of their campaigns seem to illustrate the point that an invasion of Russia will result in a loss, down to the Russians grabbing their clothes and food and burning their own sh!t to the fucking ground.

YMMV

 

[PRCD]

IMHO this was a gambit to bolster flagging domestic political support for Putin/United Russia. Appealing to a Russian's nationalism seems to be analogous to appealing to an American's bank account.

You evaded my questions.

I can't fathom anyone in their right mind fearing a US/EU/NATO invasion of Mother Russia proper. Napoleon and Hitler were two of the most (temporarily) successful Western expansionists and both of their campaigns seem to illustrate the point that an invasion of Russia will result in a loss, down to the Russians grabbing their clothes and food and burning their own sh!t to the fucking ground.

YMMV

I think you just answered your own questions there - Napoleon and Hitler, but you omitted the Kaiser. Millions dead on the Eastern front. Russian history goes back further than 1945.

 

[Woke AF]

The two Poles and one Ukrainian I know who grew up under the boot of the Kremlin have a deep hatred for any Russian gov. The real possibility of that happening again was not an option they would accept willingly.

 

[StuAzole]

You don't think preventing an invasion is a good reason to sign if - by your admission - Ukraine had no intention of joining NATO anyway and war was a certainty? War was a better outcome, in your opinion?


Was Putin's intention to destroy? Why didn't he start flattening Kiev immediately?
We had identical outcomes in Afghanistan and Iraq as the British empire 100 years earlier when it was declining, btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Bell

Why would Ukraine let Russia dictate a single bit of its foreign policy? What would the American response be if Canada gave us that ultimatum?

What do you think the outcome in Iraq was? As much as I opposed the invasion, the intent was never to permanently occupy - it was to kill Sadam.

 

[PRCD]

Why would Ukraine let Russia dictate a single bit of its foreign policy? What would the American response be if Canada gave us that ultimatum?

More evasion. Sounds like you think war was the right outcome. Ok - looks like the Ukraine and, by extension, the US and NATO got what they wanted.

What do you think the outcome in Iraq was?

Trillions spent over 20 years, thousands of Americans dead, tens of thousands maimed, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, millions displaced, new client state for Iran.

As much as I opposed the invasion, the intent was never to permanently occupy - it was to kill Sadam.

How'd we end up staying for decades?