Weight loss is harder than rocket science.

[VonMeister]

Let's define our terms. Strength is really the ability to produce force. Using traditional barbell training, you're mostly developing the ability to produce force in planes and ranges of motion that matter to the sport of powerlifting. There seems to be carry-over to other sports, but how do we know how much?



This kind of begs the question, "What is really being trained with strength training?" Once the technique is developed, the gymnast will bench a lot more than most intermediate strength trainees very quickly. The intermediate strength trainee is a long ways from doing various gymnastic moves though. I once spotted a soccer player who hadn't been training very long. He was going to squat 405, 415, and 425 in his upcoming raw meet. He had huge legs from playing soccer.

Strength training is training for strength. The implement you use doesn't define anything. If you train with a barbell that makes you a powerlifter as much as doing somersaults makes you a gymnast.

Strength will always be better than the absence of strength with regards to physical sports. How much depends on the person and this persons goals. It was long thought that strength wasn't;t needed in Golf....then Tiger came along, then Brooks Kopeka, now Bryson Dechambeau just turned the golf world on its head.

General body strength is being trained with strength training. You can't say a gymnast will always life more than an intermediate lifter. Who is the intermediate lifter and at what point is the gymnast at in their training. There are many intermediate lifters that can and do squat 405...and many advanced lifters that don't. Technique decides your level of competence...not just raw strength. Genetics and body composition decides how quickly you progress..even before you have technical expertise. Bearing down and lifting something heavy off the floor is radically different that rings, the horse or parallel bars. That doesn't mean its better or harder...just different. Both require a degree of physical strength and a whole lot of technical proficiency to accomplish.

Size and strength are two different things. There is overlap in that you will gain muscle tissue by getting stronger and you will have increased strength capacity from developing additional muscle tissue...but there is no one on earth who is squatting 405# without training the squat and being technically proficient at the movement.

 

[VaB]

"Proper training includes strength and general physical preparedness."

totally agree.

I guess I don't know a lot about strength training. I've read some, but only the basics if even that. My concern is that short term gains in strength and weight loss are not sustainable but to create plans that focus on long term goals. 5,10 years out. Is there info on this?

 

[freeride76]

your man VM has been dishing it out here for free.

go read his posts.

 

[grapedrink]

"Proper training includes strength and general physical preparedness."

totally agree.

I guess I don't know a lot about strength training. I've read some, but only the basics if even that. My concern is that short term gains in strength and weight loss are not sustainable but to create plans that focus on long term goals. 5,10 years out. Is there info on this?

Strength training is one of the most effective ways to maintain leanness over time and doesn't require a whole lot of time, just consistency. Strength training tells your body that it does not need to be efficient with calories and can prioritize muscle building, whereas cardio and calorie restriction sends the opposite signal.

 

[Chocki]

I'm not saying gymnasts aren't strong....but gymnastics require techniques that require lots and lots of practice. The technique required for the rings isn't a small burden. Joe Potato isn't doing anything useful by getting off the couch and trying to do things with rings, TRX or any other hyper specific training. Hard doesn't equal stress. General strength gains require a correct application of stress in a way that maximizes muscle recruitment.

I can squat, deadlift, bench, and overhead press more than any gymnast... but there is no way that I can do any close to what these guys are doing...I've never tried but I can say with absolute certainty that if I grabbed on to a pair of rings today and tried to do a muscle up I would fail very quickly...but I have the strength to do it.

Getting off the couch is more important than anything for sure. General strength gains are better than no strength gains. Beyond that IMO functionality aka athleticism benefits most from modalities that recruit a wicked lot of stabilizer muscles in addition to the prime movers (kettlebells, rings, sandbags, etc).

There are plenty of tutorials out there outlining the progressions needed to get proficient gymnastic rings, parallettes, etc. IMO Gold Medal Bodies is the best.

They are two different things.

Strength training is training for general strength increases.

Powerlifting is training to move the most weight possible in the shortest range of motion possible while reaching range margins set by meet criteria and determined by judges.



A gymnast that does not train the bench press will not walk up and press 2X body weight. There's a technique involved. Most new trainees couldn't walk into a gym and deadlift 225, they would never get it off the floor. Two weeks later they can do it for reps. Did they grow their strength 10X+ in a week or two? Of course not, they developed the technique necessary to safely and efficiently lift a barbell off the floor.

Gymnastics Coach Chris Sommer says differently “Gymnastics training does indeed build incredible strength. For example, I was not a particularly strong gymnast, yet I was able to do a double bodyweight deadlift and weighted chins with almost 50% extra bodyweight on my very first weight training attempts.

One of my student's, JJ Gregory, far exceeded my own modest accomplishments. On his first day of high school weight lifting, JJ pulled a nearly triple bodyweight deadlift with 400 pounds at a bodyweight of 135 and about 5'3" in height. On another day, he also did an easy weighted chin with 75 pounds, and certainly looked as though he could've done quite a bit more. We'll never know for sure because the cheap belt I was using at the time snapped.

Why gymnastics training results in such high levels of strength is still unclear. My personal opinion is that the secret lies in the plyometric nature of the movements. In a way this reminds me of the results experienced by Adam Archuleta, with the exception that we're using bodyweight variations combined with straight arm work to obtain our results.”

All Muscle, No Iron

Big arms, wide shoulders, strong abs, amazing athleticism. What can we learn from gymnasts about training? Find out here.

www.t-nation.com

 

[VonMeister]

Gymnastics Coach Chris Sommer says differently “Gymnastics training does indeed build incredible strength. For example, I was not a particularly strong gymnast, yet I was able to do a double bodyweight deadlift and weighted chins with almost 50% extra bodyweight on my very first weight training attempts.

One of my student's, JJ Gregory, far exceeded my own modest accomplishments. On his first day of high school weight lifting, JJ pulled a nearly triple bodyweight deadlift with 400 pounds at a bodyweight of 135 and about 5'3" in height. On another day, he also did an easy weighted chin with 75 pounds, and certainly looked as though he could've done quite a bit more. We'll never know for sure because the cheap belt I was using at the time snapped.

Why gymnastics training results in such high levels of strength is still unclear. My personal opinion is that the secret lies in the plyometric nature of the movements. In a way this reminds me of the results experienced by Adam Archuleta, with the exception that we're using bodyweight variations combined with straight arm work to obtain our results.”

All Muscle, No Iron

Big arms, wide shoulders, strong abs, amazing athleticism. What can we learn from gymnasts about training? Find out here.

www.t-nation.com

I never said gymnastics doesn't;t build strength. Gymnasts....well adult gymnasts anyway also strength train.

JJ Gregory did not wander into gym at 5'3" and 135 pounds and pull 400 pounds. Also, no one pulls 400 pounds. It's not worth the bother. Do you think anyone really believes a guy went through the trouble of loading a bar with 6 45 pound plates, then screwed around with a bunch of plates, including 2.5 pound microplates when they just could have easily loaded 405 on the bar and pulled it. Plus a person who can just walk into a gym untrained and pull 400 can probably pull 800 in a matter of a few weeks. Guys that can pull 800# don't weigh 135 pounds. No one pulls 400 pounds.

Plyometrics can increase strength, but not appreciably so. Tempo squats for instance use a degree of plyometrics and it is a tool for an intermediate or above lifter on low stress training day (people that lift heavy weights need low stress days)....but it's not a strength driver. Why would anyone believe that applying a tool used for advanced athletes is a good idea for a novice? Silliness.

 

[VonMeister]

"Proper training includes strength and general physical preparedness."

totally agree.

I guess I don't know a lot about strength training. I've read some, but only the basics if even that. My concern is that short term gains in strength and weight loss are not sustainable but to create plans that focus on long term goals. 5,10 years out. Is there info on this?

You should look at life as a whole. As a young man you build the tank. As you get older you have this capacity retain or build usable strength. A 50 year old person who never trained before can still get strong. A 50 year old person who trained for ten years in their 20's, then never trained again until 50, has the capacity to get stronger, and get there faster.

There's a ton of info on the benefits of general strength training and how it affects quality of life as an older adult....the largest being increased bone density and soft tissue thickness.

 

[Chocki]

I never said gymnastics doesn't;t build strength. Gymnasts....well adult gymnasts anyway also strength train.

JJ Gregory did not wander into gym at 5'3" and 135 pounds and pull 400 pounds. Also, no one pulls 400 pounds. It's not worth the bother. Do you think anyone really believes a guy went through the trouble of loading a bar with 6 45 pound plates, then screwed around with a bunch of plates, including 2.5 pound microplates when they just could have easily loaded 405 on the bar and pulled it. Plus a person who can just walk into a gym untrained and pull 400 can probably pull 800 in a matter of a few weeks. Guys that can pull 800# don't weigh 135 pounds. No one pulls 400 pounds.

Plyometrics can increase strength, but not appreciably so. Tempo squats for instance use a degree of plyometrics and it is a tool for an intermediate or above lifter on low stress training day (people that lift heavy weights need low stress days)....but it's not a strength driver. Why would anyone believe that applying a tool used for advanced athletes is a good idea for a novice? Silliness.

I didn’t write the article, and don’t have enough oly/powerlifting experience to call Sommer a liar.

 

[PRCD]

Strength training is training for strength. The implement you use doesn't define anything. If you train with a barbell that makes you a powerlifter as much as doing somersaults makes you a gymnast.

The difference is having done a meet? I don't think raw lifters change technique between training and meets. The only difference I can see is competing.

Strength will always be better than the absence of strength with regards to physical sports. How much depends on the person and this persons goals. It was long thought that strength wasn't;t needed in Golf....then Tiger came along, then Brooks Kopeka, now Bryson Dechambeau just turned the golf world on its head.

Tiger was amazing before he started strength training though. DId strength improve his drive? What lifts was he doing?

General body strength is being trained with strength training. You can't say a gymnast will always life more than an intermediate lifter. Who is the intermediate lifter and at what point is the gymnast at in their training. There are many intermediate lifters that can and do squat 405...and many advanced lifters that don't.

This is usually defined relative to bodyweight.

Technique decides your level of competence...not just raw strength.

Sure, but it doesn't take long to develop technique in the big 3 lifts compared to technique for other sports - almost any other sport.

Genetics and body composition decides how quickly you progress..even before you have technical expertise.

So much of it is cognitive - particularly the effort used and the perceived level of fatigue - and not reducible to those variables, hence the biopsychosocial model.

Bearing down and lifting something heavy off the floor is radically different that rings, the horse or parallel bars. That doesn't mean its better or harder...just different. Both require a degree of physical strength and a whole lot of technical proficiency to accomplish.

I don't think strength training moves have anywhere near the technical difficulty of gymnastics. I think this is why gymnastic upper body strength carries over so well to the bench once the gymnast is taught how to bench, which doesn't take long.

Size and strength are two different things. There is overlap in that you will gain muscle tissue by getting stronger and you will have increased strength capacity from developing additional muscle tissue...but there is no one on earth who is squatting 405# without training the squat and being technically proficient at the movement.

Most of the adaptations in strength training are neurological. You put on some muscle through progressive overload but this only takes you so far with hypertrophy. Also, strength is relative and absolute which is why we have weight classes.

Rippetoe and the other writers on his site, which include the guys at Barbell Medicine, do they advocate functional movements and movements in other planes of motion? What do they recommend for people who've been doing it a long time? Everyone stops lifting as heavy as they age, even Ed Coan. Do you do the same type of training year-over-year as you age and watch your totals decline or do you do something else?

 

[Chocki]

Let's define our terms. Strength is really the ability to produce force. Using traditional barbell training, you're mostly developing the ability to produce force in planes and ranges of motion that matter to the sport of powerlifting. There seems to be carry-over to other sports, but how do we know how much? This kind of begs the question, "What is really being trained with strength training?"

Exactly. Farm boy strength is real and if you talk to any weight room/suburban/city HS athlete that’s had to deal with it (particularly hockey and wrestling) they’ll tell you it’s scary.

IMO it boils down to full ROM, multiplanar strength coupled with the ability to produce and resist force from disadvantaged positions(stabilizers) along with insane work capacity and grip strength.

Do You Really Need Weightlifting? - Breaking Muscle

I was the crazy one. Training with Olympic lifts in a commercial gym circa 2000 gave you the instant label of “dangerous.” It was not unusual to hear about other trainers following my clients into the locker room or parking lot to forewarn them about the severely unsafe methods I was using. Fast...

breakingmuscle.com

Josh Henkin “I’ve seen many athletes humbled by the weights they use with sandbags because of the awkward and nonconforming nature of them. I’ve seen guys who can clean a 300-lb bar struggle shouldering a 200-lb sandbag”

 

[Havoc]

bosu ball squats are king broz!

 

[Chocki]

bosu ball squats are king broz!

 

[VonMeister]

The difference is having done a meet? I don't think raw lifters change technique between training and meets. The only difference I can see is competing.

Tiger was amazing before he started strength training though. DId strength improve his drive? What lifts was he doing?


This is usually defined relative to bodyweight.


Sure, but it doesn't take long to develop technique in the big 3 lifts compared to technique for other sports - almost any other sport.

So much of it is cognitive - particularly the effort used and the perceived level of fatigue - and not reducible to those variables, hence the biopsychosocial model.


I don't think strength training moves have anywhere near the technical difficulty of gymnastics. I think this is why gymnastic upper body strength carries over so well to the bench once the gymnast is taught how to bench, which doesn't take long.


Most of the adaptations in strength training are neurological. You put on some muscle through progressive overload but this only takes you so far with hypertrophy. Also, strength is relative and absolute which is why we have weight classes.

Rippetoe and the other writers on his site, which include the guys at Barbell Medicine, do they advocate functional movements and movements in other planes of motion? What do they recommend for people who've been doing it a long time? Everyone stops lifting as heavy as they age, even Ed Coan. Do you do the same type of training year-over-year as you age and watch your totals decline or do you do something else?

I don't know what point your trying to make with raw lifters and training. Competitive lifters train specifically for powerlifting. Strength training is nothing like that. Just because there's a barbell doesn't make it powerlifting.

Tiger was the most athletic and strongest golfer ever when he began. He changed the game and forced other golfers to change with it.

The cognitive aspect of lifting is the same as anything else. You can't imagine yourself to being stronger.

Strength and bodyweight are not relative.

The squat is mastered at the same rate as any other athletic activity. Why do you think competitive lifters have coaches and watch videos of every lift over and over again. Slight variations in angles change everything and can be the difference between hatching a deadlift or hitting depth on a squat. Hitting those angles and becoming "body aware" of exactly where you are with 500 pounds on your back takes decades to decipher. These small variations are where events are won or lost. I would say there probably isn't a pure stronger person than Larry Wheels on earth......but he can't deadlift what Brian Shaw can, not today anyway. Anything with a goal is going to have a high level of technical proficiency requirement to be good at it...forget even being best.

All of the strength gains in strength training are physical.

The guys at Starting Strength are pretty dogmatic about following the program and (correctly) frown on functional horseshit. Anyone who advocates functional movements or training on different planes is fullofshit.....but you can still get stronger doing it if your starting point is that of a weak woman. The Barbell Medicine people do not participate with Starting Strength nor to they submit articles or write things on each others sites....although many of them are friends. Barbel Medicine is more cerebral and includes programming for may different types of training because for them adherence to training and health is their goal, not any specific program. Starting Strength is a program, is stick to the program, get sh!t done, stick to the program, get stronger, stick to the program. Quietly you see a lot of Starting Strength affiliates adopting RPE now. Both end up at the same place but with Barbell Medicine you have many offramps from progressive overload depending on what your goals are. Plus Barbell Medicine is run by some very bright young minds in medicine today and they offer a lot of very real whole health programming.

 

[VonMeister]

Exactly. Farm boy strength is real and if you talk to any weight room/suburban/city HS athlete that’s had to deal with it (particularly hockey and wrestling) they’ll tell you it’s scary.

IMO it boils down to full ROM, multiplanar strength coupled with the ability to produce and resist force from disadvantaged positions(stabilizers) along with insane work capacity and grip strength.

Do You Really Need Weightlifting? - Breaking Muscle

I was the crazy one. Training with Olympic lifts in a commercial gym circa 2000 gave you the instant label of “dangerous.” It was not unusual to hear about other trainers following my clients into the locker room or parking lot to forewarn them about the severely unsafe methods I was using. Fast...

breakingmuscle.com

Josh Henkin “I’ve seen many athletes humbled by the weights they use with sandbags because of the awkward and nonconforming nature of them. I’ve seen guys who can clean a 300-lb bar struggle shouldering a 200-lb sandbag”

Again...specificty is key. There is specificity to farm boy strength. It's more akin to strongman. If I had today to guess, I would put my 1RM max deadlift at about 450 or so if I had a 6 weeks to train for the lift but I could pull 405 today within 5 warmup sets. I have never tried to lift an atlas stone in my life or a 300 pound sand bag and I doubt I could do very much weight with it.....but if I specifically trained to do it or was required to do it vocationally it would be easy. I guaranty if the farm boy came to my gym that picks up and places a 300 pound sandbags on a shelf he wouldn't get 405 up in a deadlift because he's never done it. I have a couple Tongan brothers at my gym, one 15 years old the other 16 and close to 275 pounds bodyweight. They are both going to be D1 athletes in a couple years. initially they couldn't squat or deadlift their bodyweight but within 3 weeks were both 1.5 times bodyweight. They were strong enough on day one but without proficiency they were at a mechanical disadvantage which makes even light weight feel like it weighs a ton. Fukas run like the wind too.

Again though....if being a farm boy is a dream you have and it leads to program adherence I would train you like a farm boy. This isn't a zero sum deal.

 

[PRCD]

Strength and bodyweight are not relative.

Then why do we talk about metrics like a 2x bodyweight squat or a 3x bodweight deadlift?

The cognitive aspect of lifting is the same as anything else. You can't imagine yourself to being stronger.

No? You also can't develop more mental fortitude to grind out more reps, hit bigger PRs, and push through fatigue?

The guys at Starting Strength are pretty dogmatic about following the program and (correctly) frown on functional horseshit. Anyone who advocates functional movements or training on different planes is fullofshit.....but you can still get stronger doing it if your starting point is that of a weak woman.

Mike Boyle, JC Santana, Alwyn Cosgrove, and those guys are wrong, huh?

The Barbell Medicine people do not participate with Starting Strength nor to they submit articles or write things on each others sites....although many of them are friends. Barbel Medicine is more cerebral and includes programming for may different types of training because for them adherence to training and health is their goal, not any specific program

No?

Jordan Feigenbaum

Starting Strength is a strength training system designed to safely and efficiently improve strength, health, and athletic performance using basic barbell exercises.

startingstrength.com

Austin Baraki

Starting Strength is a strength training system designed to safely and efficiently improve strength, health, and athletic performance using basic barbell exercises.

startingstrength.com

Mike Tuchscherer

Rip interviews Mike Tuchscherer. [revised edit posted 12/13/13]

startingstrength.com

 

[Chocki]

Again...specificty is key. There is specificity to farm boy strength. It's more akin to strongman. If I had today to guess, I would put my 1RM max deadlift at about 450 or so if I had a 6 weeks to train for the lift but I could pull 405 today within 5 warmup sets. I have never tried to lift an atlas stone in my life or a 300 pound sand bag and I doubt I could do very much weight with it.....but if I specifically trained to do it or was required to do it vocationally it would be easy. I guaranty if the farm boy came to my gym that picks up and places a 300 pound sandbags on a shelf he wouldn't get 405 up in a deadlift because he's never done it. I have a couple Tongan brothers at my gym, one 15 years old the other 16 and close to 275 pounds bodyweight. They are both going to be D1 athletes in a couple years. initially they couldn't squat or deadlift their bodyweight but within 3 weeks were both 1.5 times bodyweight. They were strong enough on day one but without proficiency they were at a mechanical disadvantage which makes even light weight feel like it weighs a ton. Fukas run like the wind too.

Again though....if being a farm boy is a dream you have and it leads to program adherence I would train you like a farm boy. This isn't a zero sum deal.

Westside Barbell’s Louie Simmons used functional/farm boy training imo more than anything with MMA fighter Matt Brown

Matt Brown’s Immortal workout

Westside Barbell owner Louie Simmons explains how he trains UFC fighter Matt 'The Immortal' Brown

www.coachmag.co.uk

Westside Wisdom

The godfather of powerlifting talks about Max Effort, Dynamic Effort, explosiveness, box squats, and more!

www.t-nation.com

The result:

 

[VonMeister]

Then why do we talk about metrics like a 2x bodyweight squat or a 3x bodweight deadlift?


No? You also can't develop more mental fortitude to grind out more reps, hit bigger PRs, and push through fatigue?


Mike Boyle, JC Santana, Alwyn Cosgrove, and those guys are wrong, huh?


No?

Jordan Feigenbaum

Starting Strength is a strength training system designed to safely and efficiently improve strength, health, and athletic performance using basic barbell exercises.

startingstrength.com

Austin Baraki

Starting Strength is a strength training system designed to safely and efficiently improve strength, health, and athletic performance using basic barbell exercises.

startingstrength.com

Mike Tuchscherer

Rip interviews Mike Tuchscherer. [revised edit posted 12/13/13]

startingstrength.com

I'm not going to look for everything Mike Boyle, JC Santana, Alwyn Cosgrove said regarding it. My fallback position is that you getting what they said wrong because as I will describe in the next paragraph, you have no idea what you're taking about....but if they advocate it, they are wrong.

Did you not want to put in the effort to find older articles? It's well known that when Barbell Medicine was started about three years ago or so there was some hurt feelings to bad blood between the two organizations. Such is life. The two organizations do not participate with each other publicly AT ALL. While personal relationships remain, professionally the two organizations are diametrically opposed in how they program. Failed gotchas are my favorites.

Mental preparation is important...I said that....but it's not a strength driver. Being prepared mentally is the same for power lifting, gymnastics, or any other activity.

 

[VonMeister]

Westside Barbell’s Louie Simmons used functional/farm boy training imo more than anything with MMA fighter Matt Brown

Matt Brown’s Immortal workout

Westside Barbell owner Louie Simmons explains how he trains UFC fighter Matt 'The Immortal' Brown

www.coachmag.co.uk

Westside Wisdom

The godfather of powerlifting talks about Max Effort, Dynamic Effort, explosiveness, box squats, and more!

www.t-nation.com

The result:

I guess if the goal is being a 22-17 record MMA fighter you should go buy some sand then. Too bad his opponents weren't;t out doing some silly bullshit between fights or he may have had a chance.

So? Where did I saw it didn't work? Do you have a thing for farm boys? Is it functional because he used the word functional? When your muscles contract do you think they care what the external resistance is?

Now were scraping the bottom of the barrel.

If you have a plus 500 squat and deadlift, want to do anabolic steroids and squat high....train all the westside you want. Louie is a kook though.

 

[Chocki]

So? Where did I saw it didn't work? Do you have a thing for farm boys? Is it functional because he used the word functional? When your muscles contract do you think they care what the external resistance is?

Now were scraping the bottom of the barrel.

If you have a plus 500 squat and deadlift, want to do anabolic steroids and squat high....train all the westside you want. Louie is a kook though.

We Need MORE People Getting Farm Boy STRONG • Zach Even-Esh

Putting athletes through some good ol' fashion Farm Boy Workouts forces the truth to be told about who is strong – both mentally and physically.

zacheven-esh.com

 

[Chocki]

"Proper training includes strength and general physical preparedness."

totally agree.

I guess I don't know a lot about strength training. I've read some, but only the basics if even that. My concern is that short term gains in strength and weight loss are not sustainable but to create plans that focus on long term goals. 5,10 years out. Is there info on this?

GMB Fitness - Play With Yourself

GMB teaches fun, smart exercises that give you the physical autonomy to pursue whatever activities you enjoy.

gmb.io