I'm recthinking part of my take on guns

everysurfer

Phil Edwards status
Sep 9, 2013
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I've decided in my mind that the founding fathers did want us to have unlimited weaponry in the hands of the masses in order to be on an equal footing with any enemy, foreign or domestic, that would challenge our liberty.

It wasn't a concern about technology creating weapons that they didn't imagine. They wanted the civilian militia to hold their own with equal strength. They wanted the militia to be equal to any standing army.

I haven't changed my mind that we as a civilian population are not responsible enough to carry that burden.

We need a constitutional amendment, led from the people to modify the 2nd amendment.
 

ElOgro

Duke status
Dec 3, 2010
32,190
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Take the lead. Be responsible. Own it personally. Start petitions to your elected officials. Post links here on your thread to the petitions.

If you’re serious.

If not, gtfo.

The worst that can happen is you’ll be regarded as another mundus.
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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One of the reasons America won its liberty was the fact that Americans were using rifled muskets instead of the smooth bore muskets issued to the British army.

Rifled muskets shot longer and more accurately.
 
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GoodOlBoy

Legend (inyourownmind)
Jan 11, 2013
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I think you are absolutely right both in regards to the founding father's rational in forming the 2nd Amendment, as well as any current legal curtailment of arms possession by individuals as they pertain to the 2nd Amendment. The idea that a private citizen of the United States, would not have access to a long-range, inter-continental, ballistic missile system, armed with a high yield thermonuclear, hydrogen bomb if they so had the means, would have been anathema to them, let alone such sillines as suppressor, grenade, or machine gun bans. How else would one arm the militia? Of course, they also thought income tax was intolerable to a free man nor that all men should be. An archaic way of thinkin; but at least they gave us a love of the "Rule of Law".

That being said, I think that the only legal way to curtail the possession of types of arms is via Constitutional Convention. The mechanism by which one can change the law is a essentially a quorum of all citizenry. Sounds like a party. There should be libations. Of which I am indulging.

Alternatively the "Well regulated" clause can be exploited to vette "who", rather than "what". I'm all for it in fact. The people who represented their country folk in the foundation of this nation were not fools; quite the contrary.

When CA outlawed bullet-button ARs in 2016, they missed out on a opportunity. If they had allowed people to register their ARs and remove the bullet buttons, so that fully-vetted, and trusted citizens were allowed to have their cake and shoot it too, they would have had near 100% compliance. Allowing people to legally transfer their property to family upon their deaths, instead of destroying it as is the law, and we probably would have had 100%. Instead most chose "featureless". I think 4% or so, 96% non-compliance. That is a recipe for disaster. Americans are an obstinate people. More to the point, by demanding registrations and vetting I think they would have been within their Constitutional authority, whereas banning they have overstepped their authority and "infringed". What do I know though, I am not a lawyer.

I do believe and have at least some evidence to back that belief up, that the vast majority gun owners, as well as Americans in general, support universal back ground checks for firearm sales and transfers. The most gun owners want to follow just laws that are Constitutional and don't infringe on their rights. There is a school of thought that believes curtailing who can get guns, as opposed to what they can get, would be highly effective in curtailing firearm violence.


I do think that George Washington would have loved the AR in it's simplicity, interchangability, accuracy, and uniformity and probably would have advocated that the Federal government should supply one free of charge to every white American between the ages of 17-45. In case of the Red Coats, Hessians, and the Indians, hwat hwat, I has wooden teeths. Twouldn'tve been a fan of standing army though.


Copy pasta
The ACTUAL facts about gun violence in America

There are about 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, this number is not disputed. (1)

U.S. population 328 million as of January 2018. (2)

Do the math: 0.00915% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.

Statistically speaking, this is insignificant. It's not even a rounding error.

What is not insignificant, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths:

• 22,938 (76%) are by suicide which can't be prevented by gun laws (3)

• 987 (3%) are by law enforcement, thus not relevant to Gun Control discussion. (4)

• 489 (2%) are accidental (5)

So no, "gun violence" isn't 30,000 annually, but rather 5,577... 0.0017% of the population.

Still too many? Let's look at location:

298 (5%) - St Louis, MO (6)

327 (6%) - Detroit, MI (6)

328 (6%) - Baltimore, MD (6)

764 (14%) - Chicago, IL (6)

That's over 30% of all gun crime. In just 4 cities.

This leaves 3,856 for for everywhere else in America... about 77 deaths per state. Obviously some States have higher rates than others

Yes, 5,577 is absolutely horrific, but let's think for a minute...

But what about other deaths each year?

70,000+ die from a drug overdose (7)

49,000 people die per year from the flu (8)

37,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities (9)

Now it gets interesting:

250,000+ people die each year from preventable medical errors. (10) You are safer in Chicago than when you are in a hospital!

610,000 people die per year from heart disease (11) Even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save about twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.).

A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides.

Simple, easily preventable, 10% reductions!

We don't have a gun problem... We have a political agenda and media sensationalism problem.

Here are some statistics about defensive gun use in the U.S. as well.


Page 15:

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).

That's a minimum 500,000 incidents/assaults deterred, if you were to play devil's advocate and say that only 10% of that low end number is accurate, then that is still more than the number of deaths, even including the suicides.

Older study, 1995:


Page 164

The most technically sound estimates presented in Table 2 are those based on the shorter one-year recall period that rely on Rs' first-hand accounts of their own experiences (person-based estimates). These estimates appear in the first two columns. They indicate that each year in the U.S. there are about 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs of all types by civilians against humans, with about 1.5 to 1.9 million of the incidents involving use of handguns.

r/dgu is a great sub to pay attention to, when you want to know whether or not someone is defensively using a gun

——sources——






https://247wallst.com/special-report/2018/11/13/cities-with-the-most-gun-violence/ (stats halved as reported statistics cover 2 years, single year statistics not found)





 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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One thing that is not being addressed is with our current open boarder situation, firearms are a form of illegal contraband flowing freely into the USA.

Without controlling the influx of these foreign made weapons. (At least one of the recent mass shootings was done with an illegally imported Eastern European made AR15.

All of the preventative measures put in place are useless until the supply of these types of weapons is controllable.
 

$kully

Duke status
Feb 27, 2009
60,286
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One thing that is not being addressed is with our current open boarder situation, firearms are a form of illegal contraband flowing freely into the USA.

Without controlling the influx of these foreign made weapons. (At least one of the recent mass shootings was done with an illegally imported Eastern European made AR15.

All of the preventative measures put in place are useless until the supply of these types of weapons is controllable.

Actually more weapons flow out of our country than in. Go try to legally purchase a firearm in Mexico and see how that goes. Maybe trumps wall will stop the flow of guns to Mexico?
 

FecalFace

Duke status
Nov 21, 2008
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Oh the old falacies again.

More people die in medical emergencies so gun violence is not a problem.

I guess we should do nothing about cancer since more people die in car crashes.

And we shouldn't not have laws against murder since laws don't stop murders.

These are kind of dumb binary arguments that Ben Shapiro "destroys" people with. :ROFLMAO:
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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Actually more weapons flow out of our country than in. Go try to legally purchase a firearm in Mexico and see how that goes. Maybe trumps wall will stop the flow of guns to Mexico?
For the common man. The Cartels have absolutely no problems.
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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Who do you think is carting American guns across the border to Mexico?

It's the other way bro. Guns are a commodity. People in Mexico don't buy guns. They can't afford them.

The gun market is here in the USA. And it's not your next door neighbor who wears a camo baseball hat.

It's the underworld. The street gangs.

Ask yourself how so many people in the Chicago projects have guns??? Duh... I'm sure they can all be traced back to a legal sale.
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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America has two separate firearm issues.

The legal, go through the established channel issue.

And the illegal, imported, criminal issue.

You will never weed out #2 as hard as you try. Unless you step up to the plate and remove the source.
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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Went on an overlanding trip about a year ago up to central Oregon. Offroading, camping for three days. 41 people showed up. Every one of them was carrying. 3 days. Nobody got shot. I won't even begin to describe the firepower.

Just American citizens who want to keep what they have earned.
 

studog

Duke status
Jan 15, 2003
35,863
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CA
everyone gun owner should require a license. need a license to drive a car, why not a gun. have to take a written test and be visually certified to get a gun license. license must be present when purchasing a gun. it's a job creator program and a revenue stream for local governments, win win. and it'd weed out most of the crazy mass killers
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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Most of us in the USA do exactly that.

And then we have 30 firearm deaths in a weekend in Chicago. Where do these guns come from??? No permits. no reciepts.
 

studog

Duke status
Jan 15, 2003
35,863
637
113
CA
Most of us in the USA do exactly that.

And then we have 30 firearm deaths in a weekend in Chicago. Where do these guns come from??? No permits. no reciepts.
impound all guns. get licensed. then you can get them back after proving yourself. Law biding gun owners shouldn’t be afraid of their guns being registered in a national system creating a pink slip for every gun, if they’re going to get them back after having to be licensed. Only a criminal would be afraid of that. 2 year grace period to register and get licensed. After that get caught, go to jail
 
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Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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Absolutely not.

America already has firearm standards that 80% of us strive to meet. The last 20% are purely illegal.

We keep thinking about firearms inside the established box. Wake up. Cocaine, Meth, Ex, Herion is flowing into this country over the open border. Guns and ammo are just another commodity.
 

Leaverite

Rabbitt Bartholomew status
Dec 19, 2017
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Central Cal
Cut off the supply of illegal firearms coming into the USA at the source. The Us/Mexican border. Take firearms out of the hands of criminals. Build the
Wall.