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Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54668
02/03/03 04:35 PM
02/03/03 04:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 459
Neither here nor there
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Legend (inyourownmind)
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Neither here nor there
quote:
Originally posted by nep:

Just go surfing and let the world go to hell.

I thought you were Neptune's Soldier, man. That sounds like Neptune's Draft Dodger talking.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54669
02/04/03 05:28 AM
02/04/03 05:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
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Black's, aren't there naked people at Black's? where exactly is that camera(not subscribed so can't see)? I think a nice game of vollyball might be in order. Let's see how surfline likes that. I'm pretty sure we could convince or bribe some of those guys to set up a net in front of the camera (a chance to be online and/or a little money should do the trick.hehehehehhehehehehe!!! [Wink] [Razz] [Razz] [Razz] [Eek!]

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54670
02/04/03 05:45 AM
02/04/03 05:45 AM
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San Diego, CA, USA
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I think the camera might actually decrease the crowd some.

This fall, the crowd was ridiculous, far more than the place can handle and still be fun and safe.

Frankly, if people see it and it's nothing special, fewer will bother walking down on crappy days. One issue with Black's is that, once you've walked down, you will paddle out, no matter what it's like, how crowded it is, etc. I've had more than one session there, when I would have had a much better time elsewhere but had no more sunlight or initiative to walk back up, so I just went out.

And if it's scary huge, people who know the spot will look at the camera and judge for themselves whether or not to go.

If this were 1983 instead of 2003, I'd think differently. But the place passed carrying capacity recently anyway.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54671
02/04/03 05:51 AM
02/04/03 05:51 AM
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Posts: 2,528
ENCINITAS, CA, USA
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Hey as long as they've got the tools out; maybe they can have REEF COP show them the best spot to place a camera at a certain canyon secret spot north of SB.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54672
02/03/03 06:01 PM
02/03/03 06:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 51
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quote:
Originally posted by Spray92109:
I think the camera might actually decrease the crowd some.

This fall, the crowd was ridiculous, far more than the place can handle and still be fun and safe.

Frankly, if people see it and it's nothing special, fewer will bother walking down on crappy days. One issue with Black's is that, once you've walked down, you will paddle out, no matter what it's like, how crowded it is, etc. I've had more than one session there, when I would have had a much better time elsewhere but had no more sunlight or initiative to walk back up, so I just went out.

And if it's scary huge, people who know the spot will look at the camera and judge for themselves whether or not to go.

If this were 1983 instead of 2003, I'd think differently. But the place passed carrying capacity recently anyway.

Ahh, how refreshing. A voice of reason mixed with a positive slant. Nice [Wink]

Can you say wisdom?

Good

On

Ya

Spray

[Smile]

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54673
02/03/03 09:47 PM
02/03/03 09:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 907
Hiding behind da Orange curtai...
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Hiding behind da Orange curtai...
I chuckled a bit when reading the posts regarding the recent Surfline camera at Blacks. I wasn't going to respond but I couldn't help myself when somewhat later I came across a quote (and some great pics) in another post regarding the super conditions in Zuma this past weekend. The author writes:

"Anticipating the wind and a 6+ tide in the early AM I opted to sleep in. As the morning progressed I checked the cams, wind vectors and took in several first hand accounts from up and down the coasts."

My point is simply that cameras do increase crowding. I've seen it first hand. Anyone with internet access is maximizing their potential to get the best possible surf conditions by getting online and looking at the many different locations under the watchful eye of an online camera. Would you invest in a stock without doing research? The same discipline now applies to your available time to surf.

Surfine is in the business to make money and thats well and fine. The addition of a camera at a marquee spot like Blacks only compliments their portfolio of cameras and helps to increase their exposure, membership and ultimately their profits. So what's the problem right? Well it simply seems to me that Surfline's attempts to be successful have come at a cost to locals everywhere. The average surfer who puts in his / her time at the beach is adversely affected when that day comes and the conditions come together and their break is transformed into something world-class. He or she now gets the privilege of sharing with scads of others savy enough to leave their home break behind because it wasnt working.

All is not lost though as these cameras have been successfully removed from their locations. Several surfing communities have come together in protest of camera installations and successfully lobbied the property owner to have the camera removed. Regardless if the camera is on public or private land, it is possible to peaceably come together in a united group and say this isnt what is in the best interest of our community. Most often it seems that people or entities arent aware of the negative impact a Surfline camera can have on the local surfing community.

Why shouldn't Blacks have a camera? For the same reasons many other surf spots shouldn't be exposed to online cameras. The reasons; there are too many to list in a single post and if I need to explain, then you just dont get it.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54674
02/03/03 09:55 PM
02/03/03 09:55 PM
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San Diego, CA, USA
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RJG-

I agree with you. But if EVERY spot has a camera, then what's the difference?

Besides, I can surmise the conditions at Black's (except for crowds) from govt./academic cameras and bouys.

I'd just as soon have no cameras at all. But there are some other fickle, off-the-beaten-path spots that truly would be ruined, while at Black's, all other things being equal, the difference will not be noticeable.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54675
02/04/03 02:04 AM
02/04/03 02:04 AM
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Shangri-La
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The flip side of this is that those who are lazy enough to only hit the spots that look good on a web cam probably aren't gonna bother seeking out all those other lesser known spots that we all love. These are the sheep; the surfers who create the picket-fence syndrome.

In my book, any experienced surfer worth his/her salt has probably a several spots in mind that are good on a given swell/tide/wind combo, and most of those spots don't have online reports.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54676
02/04/03 10:33 AM
02/04/03 10:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by blakestah:
It is most assuredly NOT a good thing.

There are balances. Surveillance cams compromise the privacy of the people on them, for the voyeurism of others. Few people who regularly go to the place under surveillance think it is a good idea, and just about everyone who isn't there enjoys seeing it.

In the USA, the privacy of the people at the beach is never considered against the potential profits to be made from voyeurism. Here in SF, Surfline pays $600/month for you to host a webcam for them. The people who host them are outcasts in the neighborhood. There is little that can be done about it, either. US courts generally rule there is nothing illegal about streaming video from a 'public' place, where public is defined loosely.

If you want to see the beach, you can go there. I agree there is something to be gained from watching a webcam, I just don't think broadcasting the beach to 10s of thousands of people is an appropriate way to get that information.

you got issues.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54677
02/04/03 10:37 AM
02/04/03 10:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nameless:
I personally liked Surfline when what they did was surf forecasting and written reports. Others objected to this, but I shrugged, and benefitted from the information.

But don't they already make enough in profit! Must they now post cameras everywhere, allowing armchair surfers to swamp our spots when conditions are right?

It's useful to read information; it's wrong to install cameras, ruining our privacy and hyping places. SURFING IS ALL ABOUT THE ADVENTURE OF THE QUEST! THIS CAMERA CRAP IS WRONG!

I cannot lawfully incite anyone to smash these cameras. I will not intervene if anyone decides to do so!

So here is what you do. Instead of bitching about how unfair life is ( once again ), start doing more early morning dawn patrols. Get down to the spot when its dark and you won't have this problem will you?

Quit being a little girl about it and toughen up for god sakes.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54678
02/04/03 11:06 AM
02/04/03 11:06 AM
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Richard Nixon Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by RJG:

My point is simply that cameras do increase crowding. I've seen it first hand. Anyone with internet access is maximizing their potential to get the best possible surf conditions by getting online and looking at the many different locations under the watchful eye of an online camera. Would you invest in a stock without doing research? The same discipline now applies to your available time to surf.

Surfine is in the business to make money and thats well and fine. The addition of a camera at a marquee spot like Blacks only compliments their portfolio of cameras and helps to increase their exposure, membership and ultimately their profits. So what's the problem right? Well it simply seems to me that Surfline's attempts to be successful have come at a cost to locals everywhere. The average surfer who puts in his / her time at the beach is adversely affected when that day comes and the conditions come together and their break is transformed into something world-class. He or she now gets the privilege of sharing with scads of others savy enough to leave their home break behind because it wasnt working.


I think all you cam haters are nuts. Cams always go in at places where its already packed anyway. How many people do you thing actually look at the cams to decide where to go to surf. I would bet that 9 times out of 10 that no matter how good other spots look, most people will surf the spot that is closest to them anyway.

Look at it this way, lets say I sit down at my computer and I check out the cams. I start looking at things up and down the coast. I have to wait a few minutes at some local picked spots (10-15 min). I wait. Damn Refresh rate sucks. Ok so now I have picked a spot I want to surf. I gather up all my stuff(10-15 min). I maybe call a buddy on the phone to see what he is doing(10 min). I drive down to the beach(5-10 min - longer if you live farther away). I suit up(10 min). I paddle out. So its taken me what? almost a hour to get my **** together and get down there?

I don't know about you but usually the lineup starts packing up right about 8 am. That means that if I dawn patrol, I can usually be on it for 2 to so hours before most of the people start to show up.

My conclusion is that I probably don't even surf with the cam people anyway so what does it matter?

More power to surfline if they can make a buck. I use two buoys and some wavewatch 3 maps to get winds/waves which takes me about a whole 30 seconds to figure out which spots are working and which aren't.

To the victor go the spoils.

[ February 04, 2003, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Richard Nixon ]

Post deleted by Scott Bass #54679
02/04/03 11:42 AM
02/04/03 11:42 AM
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Point Loma, CA
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Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54681
02/04/03 01:54 PM
02/04/03 01:54 PM
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quote:
I think all you cam haters are nuts. Cams always go in at places where its already packed anyway. How many people do you thing actually look at the cams to decide where to go to surf. I would bet that 9 times out of 10 that no matter how good other spots look, most people will surf the spot that is closest to them anyway.

Cams do NOT always go in where it is packed anyway, but that is mostly besides the point. I don't have a problem with crowding due to cams, I am not trying to keep people away by keeping cams away. Those are elitist arguments that don't fly.

However, cams DO decrease your privacy. And they ARE in places that would otherwise be fairly private. And there are NO limits on their use. Surfline spends close to $40,000 per month on their cameras - and they are increasing this regularly because it makes them money.

Look at it this way - the natural progression of this is that you will be streamed online to anyone who wants to watch you every time you go surfing. Not just to people locally. But people in Iowa will watch. Your boss, your wife, your business partner, etc. No hiding. You are online if you choose to go surfing. It will be a Brave New World.

In San Francisco there are other problems. There are 4 miles of relatively comparable beach breaks. Surfline put up cams at two positions in the middle of the quietest residential areas, which now have trash and traffic problems from surfers coming into an area with no parking and trash facilities for the crowds that come in. Now, I can and do avoid these two spots, but if the cams didn't exist people would largely stay at the ends of the beach where there are facilities for large numbers of people.

Surfline has NO consideration for locals, residential or surfing. They put up a cam on HB pier in the mid 1990s, and the spike in their online traffic was like finding plutonium in Costa Mesa.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54682
02/04/03 03:32 PM
02/04/03 03:32 PM
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San Diego, CA, USA
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First thing to do is don't support Surfline. Vote with your feet.

Our taxes and other research grants support plenty of buoys, etc., and with some curiosity and intelligence you can figure out what the surf's like, and what it will be like.

Cams are pretty useless, IMO, compared to a Fourier plot of swells, if you have a rudimentary understanding of waves.

Second thing: get a paintball gun and learn to use it well. Do some target practice regularly. Get some non-soap paint pellets. When you see a camera, shoot the lens with paint. Don't get caught.

Re: surfline put up a cam at black's.... #54683
02/04/03 03:53 PM
02/04/03 03:53 PM
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I don't support Surfline.

I don't support illegal property destruction.

You don't get it. The availability of other resources doesn't matter. The American consumer wants to be spoonfed info. And cams do fill that craving, very well. He doesn't want to read buoy data, or models. Just the facts, ma'am, and let me go surfing.

Consider all the viable subscription models on the internet. So far, the only ones that work (that I am aware of) are surf cams and porn. You will NEVER convince people to stop looking. There is a chance legislation can protect people's privacy, or zoning laws can restrict cams to commercial areas, but only if YOU get involved.

If not, well, it will be a Brave New World

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