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Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: GromsDad] #2964588
06/07/19 03:14 PM
06/07/19 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GromsDad
Originally Posted by BillyOcean
It’s all about what’s an acceptable cost

Gun nuts think random gun violence and mass shootings are an acceptable cost

Just own that


That is a gross mischaracterization. Its also an attempt to marginalize those who have a different viewpoint by calling them "gun nuts".

The random gun violence and mass shootings you speak of are a sign of a declining civilization and a loss of the fundamental respect for human life. Those things are happening independently of the fact that guns are in private hands as they have been for the past 243 years that our country has existed. If anything the violence you speak of highlights the need for private citizens to protect themselves since governments are completely incapable of doing that for the citizenry.

There’s actually no mischaracterization in Billy’s point. You actually admitted it was an acceptable cost a ways back; no I don’t have the link so you’ll have to find it.

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: manbearpig] #2964592
06/07/19 03:16 PM
06/07/19 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by manbearpig
Originally Posted by ifallalot
Originally Posted by manbearpig
Lmao you’re wrong because it’s literally a false equivalency.

It’s far more nuanced than that. While the FF had no idea where we’d be in ALL aspects, and 1a is being challenged in certain outlets, this does not make the two mutually dependent upon each other.

You shouldn’t want them to be.

1. I do not think they are mutually dependent. That's bumper sticker shit and not what we're talking about here.

2. You can keep stomping your feet all you want but that won't change the fact that the usual argument for neutering the 2A is that the Founders had no idea what weapons would turn into when they wrote the 2A. The same argument can be applied to any one of the BofR amendments, and when you apply that to others, especially the 1A, it shows how idiotic that argument is.

Challenging the 1A is treasonous in my book, and I stand by the assertion that the 1A is even more dangerous than the 2A.

Common sense-wise, I can see how some of the gun control arguments would make sense. However, I refuse to let those go in place without the 2A getting repealed and replaced. The other amendments are too important to let get regulated away. This is when people start screeching blah blah all amendments are restricted somewhat blah blah. My aversion to that fact notwithstanding, most of the gun control arguments seek to license a right. The government cannot grant and deny permission to something they already said is a right. Imagine if you had to pay the government a fee so they wouldn't quarter soldiers in your house, a non-quartering license.


The two being mutually dependent is exactly what you imply when you use the argument that when one is changed the other should be inherently changed. There’s no feet stomping, that’s exactly what you’re saying. It’s a black and white rebuttal that lacks any nuance. You love to remove that nuance when you try to dismiss an argument.

You keep ignoring some simple facts; like the requirement to remove 2a for any kind of legislation being a requirement. It’s very blatantly not the case, otherwise it would no longer exist. You need to step away from the dishonest and philosophical arguments and step into reality.

It’s interesting you being up the point of 1a being more dangerous. I see the point though I’m not sure I fully agree when you consider the actual statistics but I’m surprised to hear it from you. That’s the precise argument your buddy fecal is constantly making.

I've never disagreed that the 1A is dangerous. That's what makes it awesome and so worth keeping as free as possible. That's what makes us citizens and not subjects. My buddy is always intending citizens to become subjects.

As to the rest of it, you're not using any nuance at all. There's a big difference between regulating something and licensing a right, and you're completely inventing shit out of thin air if you think comparative means mutually dependent.


My entire existence is a failed gotcha
Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: BillyOcean] #2964594
06/07/19 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyOcean
Originally Posted by ifallalot
Originally Posted by BillyOcean
It’s all about what’s an acceptable cost

Gun nuts think random gun violence and mass shootings are an acceptable cost

Just own that

Just own that you want the 2A to go away. It's ok, I get it.

Its all about what's an acceptable cost for an illusion of safety


I like the 2A in theory but reality is too messy

I think the benefits of taking guns away from the people would outweigh the costs bigly

I think the UK is a good example

They still have their freedumbs for the most part and can even go on jolly hunts but they don’t have anything like our gun violence

That is a worthwhile trade off empirically

Acid, knives, fire-bombing, etc.


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Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: frvcvs] #2964596
06/07/19 03:18 PM
06/07/19 03:18 PM
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It’s hard to kill a lot of people with acid and knives

Honestly just look at the data (I can’t believe I’m saying this)

Violent deaths in USA vs UK

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: ifallalot] #2964597
06/07/19 03:19 PM
06/07/19 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ifallalot
Originally Posted by manbearpig
Originally Posted by ifallalot
Originally Posted by manbearpig
Lmao you’re wrong because it’s literally a false equivalency.

It’s far more nuanced than that. While the FF had no idea where we’d be in ALL aspects, and 1a is being challenged in certain outlets, this does not make the two mutually dependent upon each other.

You shouldn’t want them to be.

1. I do not think they are mutually dependent. That's bumper sticker shit and not what we're talking about here.

2. You can keep stomping your feet all you want but that won't change the fact that the usual argument for neutering the 2A is that the Founders had no idea what weapons would turn into when they wrote the 2A. The same argument can be applied to any one of the BofR amendments, and when you apply that to others, especially the 1A, it shows how idiotic that argument is.

Challenging the 1A is treasonous in my book, and I stand by the assertion that the 1A is even more dangerous than the 2A.

Common sense-wise, I can see how some of the gun control arguments would make sense. However, I refuse to let those go in place without the 2A getting repealed and replaced. The other amendments are too important to let get regulated away. This is when people start screeching blah blah all amendments are restricted somewhat blah blah. My aversion to that fact notwithstanding, most of the gun control arguments seek to license a right. The government cannot grant and deny permission to something they already said is a right. Imagine if you had to pay the government a fee so they wouldn't quarter soldiers in your house, a non-quartering license.


The two being mutually dependent is exactly what you imply when you use the argument that when one is changed the other should be inherently changed. There’s no feet stomping, that’s exactly what you’re saying. It’s a black and white rebuttal that lacks any nuance. You love to remove that nuance when you try to dismiss an argument.

You keep ignoring some simple facts; like the requirement to remove 2a for any kind of legislation being a requirement. It’s very blatantly not the case, otherwise it would no longer exist. You need to step away from the dishonest and philosophical arguments and step into reality.

It’s interesting you being up the point of 1a being more dangerous. I see the point though I’m not sure I fully agree when you consider the actual statistics but I’m surprised to hear it from you. That’s the precise argument your buddy fecal is constantly making.

I've never disagreed that the 1A is dangerous. That's what makes it awesome and so worth keeping as free as possible. That's what makes us citizens and not subjects. My buddy is always intending citizens to become subjects.

As to the rest of it, you're not using any nuance at all. There's a big difference between regulating something and licensing a right, and you're completely inventing shit out of thin air if you think comparative means mutually dependent.

Let’s keep the record straight here, I didn’t invent that comparative mutuality, you did.

I may not have the most nuanced argument in the world but it’s far more than your black and white arguments you use when trying to dismiss an argument.

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: BillyOcean] #2964599
06/07/19 03:21 PM
06/07/19 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyOcean
It’s hard to kill a lot of people with acid and knives

Honestly just look at the data (I can’t believe I’m saying this)

Violent deaths in USA vs UK


Why don't you move there?


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: BillyOcean] #2964600
06/07/19 03:22 PM
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Death isn't the end-all be all. Acid and knives maim, and an acid disfigured face can be worse than death.

The point is that there is no silver bullet that is going to stop people from hurting each other, and I think the chance of violent death by shooting is an acceptable cost for the freedom to own arms

Freedom is dangerous


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Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: ifallalot] #2964616
06/07/19 03:54 PM
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I really haven’t seen anyone make the “silver bullet” resolution shrug

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: manbearpig] #2964632
06/07/19 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by manbearpig
Let’s keep the record straight here, I didn’t invent that comparative mutuality, you did.

I may not have the most nuanced argument in the world but it’s far more than your black and white arguments you use when trying to dismiss an argument.

Who's trying to dismiss an argument?

When it comes to rights, black & white, philosophical thinking is the only way. Otherwise you're opening the door for tyranny.


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Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: frvcvs] #2964651
06/07/19 04:43 PM
06/07/19 04:43 PM
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If you're not operating from principle then you're just chasing rabbits.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is intended to reflect the principle and isn't supposed to be applied on the situational basis. That's what makes it hard to deal with sometimes and why the guilty sometimes walk free. One of the advantages is that it is possible to know exactly where you stand at any given time because you're not as vulnerable to creative or subjective interpretation. Obviously not on the perfect basis but at least on a stronger basis than if you're wholly reliant to someone else's unilateral interpretation.


"I can't define porn but I know it when I see it" is an example of the situational application that's easy to apply but isn't principles-based. Because it's application is subjective and the expectations are a moving target it's a lot harder to know exactly where the line is at any given time.


I think the application always illustrates a principle, whether that principle is being consistently and fairly applied or not.



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Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: GromsDad] #2964656
06/07/19 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GromsDad
Originally Posted by BillyOcean
It’s all about what’s an acceptable cost

Gun nuts think random gun violence and mass shootings are an acceptable cost

Just own that


That is a gross mischaracterization. Its also an attempt to marginalize those who have a different viewpoint by calling them "gun nuts".

The random gun violence and mass shootings you speak of are a sign of a declining civilization and a loss of the fundamental respect for human life. Those things are happening independently of the fact that guns are in private hands as they have been for the past 243 years that our country has existed. If anything the violence you speak of highlights the need for private citizens to protect themselves since governments are completely incapable of doing that for the citizenry.


But this is the world we live in bro

You want the random psycho tailgating you on the highway to have a gun in his glove box?

Because that is what you’re arguing for in reality

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: GromsDad] #2964658
06/07/19 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GromsDad
Originally Posted by BillyOcean
It’s hard to kill a lot of people with acid and knives

Honestly just look at the data (I can’t believe I’m saying this)

Violent deaths in USA vs UK


Why don't you move there?


I could

I need a better raincoat first

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: ifallalot] #2964661
06/07/19 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ifallalot
Death isn't the end-all be all. Acid and knives maim, and an acid disfigured face can be worse than death.

The point is that there is no silver bullet that is going to stop people from hurting each other, and I think the chance of violent death by shooting is an acceptable cost for the freedom to own arms

Freedom is dangerous


It’s not just a theoretical chance though

The rate of gun violence in USA blows away other countries

Actual people die because guns are widely held

Maybe you say it’s a necessary cost to reserve this power to the people

Which is a decent philosophical argument in my opinion but at a high practical cost

Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: BillyOcean] #2964677
06/07/19 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyOcean


Actual people die because guns are widely held



This is factually incorrect. You act as if guns kill people all on their own. Something has changed in our culture since about 1990 and its not the fact that guns are available. They've always been available.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Thoughts and Prayers!!! [Re: BillyOcean] #2964678
06/07/19 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyOcean
Originally Posted by ifallalot
Death isn't the end-all be all. Acid and knives maim, and an acid disfigured face can be worse than death.

The point is that there is no silver bullet that is going to stop people from hurting each other, and I think the chance of violent death by shooting is an acceptable cost for the freedom to own arms

Freedom is dangerous


It’s not just a theoretical chance though

The rate of gun violence in USA blows away other countries

Actual people die because guns are widely held

Maybe you say it’s a necessary cost to reserve this power to the people

Which is a decent philosophical argument in my opinion but at a high practical cost



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there are 330 million us citizens


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