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Embryonic Life Protection #2911883
02/11/19 05:04 PM
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Since you dipshits messed up the abortion topic, let me try again with a different title.

There are bills out there that would protect human life starting at conception.

So how do you police these pregnancies, particularly in the first 12 weeks or so?

Do you have to bury every miscarried "person"?

Will a criminal investigation be required for every "person" who doesn't make it to term?

Will doctors be required to report the end of pregnancies to the authorities?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2911905
02/11/19 05:48 PM
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Will this extend to social inequities?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2911908
02/11/19 05:50 PM
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Just Republicans keeping govt out our lives.

Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2911938
02/11/19 06:28 PM
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I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

But these aren't random hypotheticals. There are bills across the country that will declare any fetus with a detectable heartbeat a person. How do you enforce laws on behalf of a 5 or 6 week old fetus? Women miscarry at and beyond this stage all the time. Manslaughter if they drank too much one night and then miscarried? Is an autopsy required in such cases? Burial for the fetus? What if the mom didn't even know she was pregnant?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2911966
02/11/19 06:55 PM
02/11/19 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

But these aren't random hypotheticals. There are bills across the country that will declare any fetus with a detectable heartbeat a person. How do you enforce laws on behalf of a 5 or 6 week old fetus? Women miscarry at and beyond this stage all the time. Manslaughter if they drank too much one night and then miscarried? Is an autopsy required in such cases? Burial for the fetus? What if the mom didn't even know she was pregnant?



Anecdotal story on the subject that I read on the twits:

The fetal heartbeat laws are just a ban on abortions. A woman could notice her missed cycle at the 4 to 5 week mark. You can get pee test sticks on the cheap at a 99cent store. Schedule appointment with primary that may be 2 weeks out and that puts you in the ~6 to 7 weeks range. There is now a detectable heartbeat.

Last edited by Phi1; 02/11/19 06:57 PM. Reason: Horrible grammar.
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: Phi1] #2911970
02/11/19 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Phi1
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

But these aren't random hypotheticals. There are bills across the country that will declare any fetus with a detectable heartbeat a person. How do you enforce laws on behalf of a 5 or 6 week old fetus? Women miscarry at and beyond this stage all the time. Manslaughter if they drank too much one night and then miscarried? Is an autopsy required in such cases? Burial for the fetus? What if the mom didn't even know she was pregnant?



Anecdotal story on the subject that I read on the twits:

The fetal heartbeat laws are just a ban on abortions. A woman could notice her missed cycle at the 4 to 5 week mark. You can get pee test sticks on the cheap at a 99cent store. Schedule appointment with primary that may be 2 weeks out and that puts you in the ~6 to 7 weeks range. There is now a detectable heartbeat.


But still - what if she miscarries the next week?

Will she need to be investigated for murder? Maybe she did something to end the pregnancy?

Can you flush the fetus at 7 weeks if it plops out in the toilet or do you need to take it to the police so they can analyze? What if they're not sure if there was a heartbeat or not? Autopsy?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2911990
02/11/19 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

But these aren't random hypotheticals. There are bills across the country that will declare any fetus with a detectable heartbeat a person. How do you enforce laws on behalf of a 5 or 6 week old fetus? Women miscarry at and beyond this stage all the time. Manslaughter if they drank too much one night and then miscarried? Is an autopsy required in such cases? Burial for the fetus? What if the mom didn't even know she was pregnant?


You're doing it again.

No one was arguing against 1st Trimester abortions.

The gotcha game is more tired than the goast nonsense


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: ifallalot] #2911991
02/11/19 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

But these aren't random hypotheticals. There are bills across the country that will declare any fetus with a detectable heartbeat a person. How do you enforce laws on behalf of a 5 or 6 week old fetus? Women miscarry at and beyond this stage all the time. Manslaughter if they drank too much one night and then miscarried? Is an autopsy required in such cases? Burial for the fetus? What if the mom didn't even know she was pregnant?


You're doing it again.

No one was arguing against 1st Trimester abortions.


Didn't everysurf say he can't know when a kid is a kid so there for no abortions?


We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2911995
02/11/19 07:22 PM
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If the science concludes they can feel pain and react to stimuli at a given point then maybe the coroners should get involved.

If it makes you happier we can have those performed in non-sterile production factory facilities so they're more closely resemble a medical waste facility.

Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: GDaddy] #2911999
02/11/19 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: GDaddy
If the science concludes they can feel pain and react to stimuli at a given point then maybe the coroners should get involved.



so we should all be vegetarian?


"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: hal9000] #2912002
02/11/19 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
If the science concludes they can feel pain and react to stimuli at a given point then maybe the coroners should get involved.



so we should all be vegetarian?

Are you suggesting we apply animal cruelty laws to abortions? 'Cause it would be tough to argue these babies are being conceived to eat. Or skin. Or feed to our cattle or pets

Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: hal9000] #2912003
02/11/19 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
If the science concludes they can feel pain and react to stimuli at a given point then maybe the coroners should get involved.



so we should all be vegetarian?


Red herring

I hear plants feel pain too, so I guess we should just all starve


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: ifallalot] #2912005
02/11/19 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
If the science concludes they can feel pain and react to stimuli at a given point then maybe the coroners should get involved.



so we should all be vegetarian?


Red herring

I hear plants feel pain too, so I guess we should just all starve


No credible scientific study has ever suggested this.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: ifallalot] #2912034
02/11/19 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

But these aren't random hypotheticals. There are bills across the country that will declare any fetus with a detectable heartbeat a person. How do you enforce laws on behalf of a 5 or 6 week old fetus? Women miscarry at and beyond this stage all the time. Manslaughter if they drank too much one night and then miscarried? Is an autopsy required in such cases? Burial for the fetus? What if the mom didn't even know she was pregnant?


You're doing it again.

No one was arguing against 1st Trimester abortions.

The gotcha game is more tired than the goast nonsense


Nobody but the several states that are pushing fetal heartbeat bills?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: GDaddy] #2912037
02/11/19 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: GDaddy
If the science concludes they can feel pain and react to stimuli at a given point then maybe the coroners should get involved.

If it makes you happier we can have those performed in non-sterile production factory facilities so they're more closely resemble a medical waste facility.


Fetal heartbeat bills dont consider that. Their push is to make a fetus a person at 6 weeks.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912038
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So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.


Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: GDaddy] #2912041
02/11/19 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: GDaddy
So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.



Deferring to politics over science how?

Science is clear that 6 week old fetuses cant survive on their own. They also dont feel pain. I asked a pretty simple quest - if people want to make heartbeats the trigger for protection, how do you enforce and police?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912079
02/11/19 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

You would guess wrong.

On a side note, every minority can insist on being called whatever they want. So why do the pro choice insist on calling me anti choice, when my side prefers pro life? Because they are assholes maybe?

Now to answer the question at hand, no one has ever called for the pregnancy police. That's a total straw man.

I think morning after pill is ok, because that flushes the egg, and it takes a day or so for the little swimmers to find the target.

And nobody answered my question. If you don't know when the sperm/ egg becomes one of us, then you might just be killing babies. That's pretty heavy, if you ask me. Are you really willing to flip a coin about maybe killing a baby?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912081
02/11/19 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.



Deferring to politics over science how?

Science is clear that 6 week old fetuses cant survive on their own. They also dont feel pain. I asked a pretty simple quest - if people want to make heartbeats the trigger for protection, how do you enforce and police?



I just listened to a NPR segment on that today. Science is not clear when a fetus begins to feel pain. Brain cells divide on day two, if I remember correctly.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912082
02/11/19 09:41 PM
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You do not remember correctly. And even if you did, brain cells do not equal a brain much less a nervous system to go along with it.


Beyond that, your question has been answered ten times over -- you just don't like the answer. Meanwhile, you skip over the real implications that your argument would give rise to. And, as for your naming issues, pretty hard to complain when you and your ilk refer to the other side as baby killers. shrug

Last edited by sizzld1; 02/11/19 09:43 PM.

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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912085
02/11/19 09:43 PM
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Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912086
02/11/19 09:44 PM
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Why are conserBBatives so terrible at analogies?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: sizzld1] #2912087
02/11/19 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: sizzld1
You do not remember correctly. And even if you did, brain cells do not equal a brain much less a nervous system to go along with it.


Beyond that, your question has been answered ten times over -- you just don't like the answer. Meanwhile, you skip over the real implications that your argument would give rise to. And, as for your naming issues, pretty hard to complain when you and your ilk refer to the other side as baby killers. shrug


It was answered?!? I missed it. At what point does a baby begin?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912088
02/11/19 09:52 PM
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Quote:
The early signs of a brain have begun to form. Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur.


Ok, there's a start. 5 weeks in, brain activity. We use brain activity as a test for death, so why not life?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2912097
02/11/19 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.



Deferring to politics over science how?

Science is clear that 6 week old fetuses cant survive on their own. They also dont feel pain. I asked a pretty simple quest - if people want to make heartbeats the trigger for protection, how do you enforce and police?



I just listened to a NPR segment on that today. Science is not clear when a fetus begins to feel pain. Brain cells divide on day two, if I remember correctly.


Not really relevant to my question.

I'm assuming these laws making an embryo with a heartbeat a person will hit the books. I'm curious about all of the unanticipated issues.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912100
02/11/19 10:07 PM
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How do you enforce? Same as any law. If a doctor says , "i do second trimenter abortions", lock him up.

Before an abortion, use heart monitor. You do your best.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2912101
02/11/19 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912103
02/11/19 10:14 PM
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morally and ethically but not legally post-conception = human life.

Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2912108
02/11/19 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
How do you enforce? Same as any law. If a doctor says , "i do second trimenter abortions", lock him up.

Before an abortion, use heart monitor. You do your best.


Why do you think making a fetus a person matters only to interactions with doctors? People pushing fetal heartbeat bills argue a fetus with a heartbeat is a viable person. Why would that logic only hold to doctors performing abortions? Women can induce miscarriages - is that murder after 6 weeks? Abortions can be had with a pill until about 10 weeks - is it murder after 6 weeks? How can you tell the difference between a "normal" miscarriage and a pill-induced abortion without a full investigation?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912109
02/11/19 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?


It's a silly question. A death under a doctor's care doesn't require autopsy. Will there be miscarriage investigations? Maybe if "foul play" is suspected. The law is already, if you assault a pregnant mom, and the baby dies, you get charged with murder.

Your questions are for a lawyer, not a surfing carpenter.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2912111
02/11/19 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?


It's a silly question. A death under a doctor's care doesn't require autopsy. Will there be miscarriage investigations? Maybe if "foul play" is suspected. The law is already, if you assault a pregnant mom, and the baby dies, you get charged with murder.

Your questions are for a lawyer, not a surfing carpenter.


How much can you really care about a 6-week old fetus if you're not willing to investigate their death in the same manner as a 6 month old child?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: sizzld1] #2912124
02/11/19 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: sizzld1
Why are conserBBatives so terrible at analogies?


"To be a master of metaphor," Aristotle wrote in his Poetics, "is the greatest thing by far. It is the one thing that cannot be learnt from others, and it is also a sign of genius."


We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912162
02/12/19 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?


It's a silly question. A death under a doctor's care doesn't require autopsy. Will there be miscarriage investigations? Maybe if "foul play" is suspected. The law is already, if you assault a pregnant mom, and the baby dies, you get charged with murder.

Your questions are for a lawyer, not a surfing carpenter.


How much can you really care about a 6-week old fetus if you're not willing to investigate their death in the same manner as a 6 month old child?



You are being intentionally awkward. Carpenters aren't willing to investigate much of anything. It's not my place to make rules. I asked the difficult question of when a baby is alive. I think you shouldn't kill anything until you know.

Beyond that I don't have much of an opinion. Yea , I know, who would have thought...


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2912177
02/12/19 01:31 AM
02/12/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Since you dipshits messed up the abortion topic, let me try again with a different title.

There are bills out there that would protect human life starting at conception.

So how do you police these pregnancies, particularly in the first 12 weeks or so?

Do you have to bury every miscarried "person"?

Will a criminal investigation be required for every "person" who doesn't make it to term?

Will doctors be required to report the end of pregnancies to the authorities?









These laws will go nowhere. The people advocating for them are doing so to get the votes of the morons that keep them in power.

All of your questions are superfluous.


No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn

- The Wasp
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2912185
02/12/19 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?


It's a silly question. A death under a doctor's care doesn't require autopsy. Will there be miscarriage investigations? Maybe if "foul play" is suspected. The law is already, if you assault a pregnant mom, and the baby dies, you get charged with murder.

Your questions are for a lawyer, not a surfing carpenter.


How much can you really care about a 6-week old fetus if you're not willing to investigate their death in the same manner as a 6 month old child?



You are being intentionally awkward. Carpenters aren't willing to investigate much of anything. It's not my place to make rules. I asked the difficult question of when a baby is alive. I think you shouldn't kill anything until you know.

Beyond that I don't have much of an opinion. Yea , I know, who would have thought...


There are problems with your diction. You are using words that don't accurately describe reality.

As such, I think you have fallen victim of your own framing effect.

It happens to the best of us.

Thank god you are not making policy.

That is being reserved the experts in goverment.




We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: Duffy] #2913090
02/13/19 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Duffy
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Since you dipshits messed up the abortion topic, let me try again with a different title.

There are bills out there that would protect human life starting at conception.

So how do you police these pregnancies, particularly in the first 12 weeks or so?

Do you have to bury every miscarried "person"?

Will a criminal investigation be required for every "person" who doesn't make it to term?

Will doctors be required to report the end of pregnancies to the authorities?









These laws will go nowhere. The people advocating for them are doing so to get the votes of the morons that keep them in power.

All of your questions are superfluous.


Wanna bet?

https://www.wane.com/news/national-world...ture/1773788939

All of my questions are relevant.

But let me ask one more - what's the moral hazard with aborting early-stage fetuses? The fetus isn't aware that it's being aborted and the only person likely to grieve over the loss is the one making the choice to abort.


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913098
02/13/19 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
How do you enforce? Same as any law. If a doctor says , "i do second trimenter abortions", lock him up.

Before an abortion, use heart monitor. You do your best.


An amnio is done around 16 to 20 weeks, well into the second trimester. So if genetic abnormalities and/or other defects are detected, you'd take abortion off the table?


Nothing is obscene provided it is done in bad taste.

Russ Meyer
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913104
02/13/19 08:53 PM
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He will raise the baby for the person who would prefer to kill her lamo kid.


We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913121
02/13/19 09:15 PM
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I have a friend with a downs syndrome kid. While it is work, the kid has a good life. He has as much right to life as I do.

If the kid has a disease that will end their life, then let nature take its course.

Do you want to kill the handicapped? Is that what you are proposing?

The pro choice folks say it's a right to privacy that lets a woman control her own body. I think that right applies to babies too. Now, if anyone knows when a group of cells isn't a baby, go for it. But so far, nobody has that answer.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913127
02/13/19 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
I have a friend with a downs syndrome kid. While it is work, the kid has a good life. He has as much right to life as I do.

If the kid has a disease that will end their life, then let nature take its course.

Do you want to kill the handicapped? Is that what you are proposing?

The pro choice folks say it's a right to privacy that lets a woman control her own body. I think that right applies to babies too. Now, if anyone knows when a group of cells isn't a baby, go for it. But so far, nobody has that answer.


So even if a child has no chance of life, you'd make the mother go through the entire pregnancy? That's fucked up. crazy2


Nothing is obscene provided it is done in bad taste.

Russ Meyer
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913130
02/13/19 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
I have a friend with a downs syndrome kid. While it is work, the kid has a good life. He has as much right to life as I do.

If the kid has a disease that will end their life, then let nature take its course.

Do you want to kill the handicapped? Is that what you are proposing?

The pro choice folks say it's a right to privacy that lets a woman control her own body. I think that right applies to babies too. Now, if anyone knows when a group of cells isn't a baby, go for it. But so far, nobody has that answer.


What's wrong with ending a life early in the pregnancy?

Nobody will ever know him. He'll never know he was aborted. What's the driver behind your "every life must live" thought?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913136
02/13/19 09:34 PM
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I don't make anyone do anything. Life sucks, then you die. Yea, the baby got delt a shitty hand.

There are lots of people with cancer in hospice. They suffer then they die. They have no chance at life either. Same rules apply. Everybody gets to live until they can't.

You are arguing the outlier. Let's talk about the majority of abortions.

The baby is healthy and in its second to third month. It has little arms and legs. If nobody interfered, that little guy would live for 80 years. Have tons of friends, maybe get married and have their own kids. Maybe a dog or two. Has a job that is tolerable, but the weekends are free to play frisbee on the beach.

And the mom got pregnant because a condom didn't feel good, or couldn't count days, or got drunk and thought some looser looked cute.

So are you willing to cheat the baby out of 80 years, so the mom's boobs don't sag, and she can still party?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913142
02/13/19 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
I don't make anyone do anything. Life sucks, then you die. Yea, the baby got delt a shitty hand.

There are lots of people with cancer in hospice. They suffer then they die. They have no chance at life either. Same rules apply. Everybody gets to live until they can't.

You are arguing the outlier. Let's talk about the majority of abortions.

The baby is healthy and in its second to third month. It has little arms and legs. If nobody interfered, that little guy would live for 80 years. Have tons of friends, maybe get married and have their own kids. Maybe a dog or two. Has a job that is tolerable, but the weekends are free to play frisbee on the beach.

And the mom got pregnant because a condom didn't feel good, or couldn't count days, or got drunk and thought some looser looked cute.

So are you willing to cheat the baby out of 80 years, so the mom's boobs don't sag, and she can still party?




Yes.

The baby isn't a person yet at that stage. No real brain activity to speak of yet, no personality, no friends, no family. In fact, it may still be miscarried. What ethical mandate compels us to let that baby live? Nobody but perhaps the mother herself will miss him. It's possible that nobody even knows he exists. He certainly won't know what's going on.


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913145
02/13/19 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
I don't make anyone do anything. Life sucks, then you die. Yea, the baby got delt a shitty hand.

There are lots of people with cancer in hospice. They suffer then they die. They have no chance at life either. Same rules apply. Everybody gets to live until they can't.

You are arguing the outlier. Let's talk about the majority of abortions.

The baby is healthy and in its second to third month. It has little arms and legs. If nobody interfered, that little guy would live for 80 years. Have tons of friends, maybe get married and have their own kids. Maybe a dog or two. Has a job that is tolerable, but the weekends are free to play frisbee on the beach.

And the mom got pregnant because a condom didn't feel good, or couldn't count days, or got drunk and thought some looser looked cute.

So are you willing to cheat the baby out of 80 years, so the mom's boobs don't sag, and she can still party?




Most second trimester abortions are the result of complications. First trimester you're correct. However, if you want to reduce abortions, increase education and provide contraception for free/cheap.

With the latter part of your post, think about how many lives you prematurely aborted by getting a bummer or doing a little coitus interruptus like our good friend Onan. Yeah, supposedly God killed him for that.


Nothing is obscene provided it is done in bad taste.

Russ Meyer
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913146
02/13/19 09:45 PM
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And on the hospice front, I'm fine with assisted suicide.

It's weird to me that we're ok euthanizing pets who have no say but not people who do.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913151
02/13/19 09:55 PM
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-47154287

Quote:
Mumbai businessman Raphael Samuel told the BBC that it's wrong to bring children into the world because they then have to put up with lifelong suffering.

Mr Samuel, of course, understands that our consent can't be sought before we are born, but insists that "it was not our decision to be born".

So as we didn't ask to be born, we should be paid for the rest of our lives to live, he argues.



Originally Posted By: Mark Twain

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.


Well, someone is stupid but it's not Shakespeare.
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913153
02/13/19 10:00 PM
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But still no answer. When does the fetus become one of us, and how could you know?


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913154
02/13/19 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr


Do you want to kill the handicapped? Is that what you are proposing?



Well, it would make things easier.


We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913157
02/13/19 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
But still no answer. When does the fetus become one of us, and how could you know?


Do you think a day-certain will make you feel better about this? You know there's no precise answer because no fetus develops exactly as the next. You're also, intentionally I assume, using vague terms like "one of us" to make sure I can't give you an answer you like.

The SCOTUS's viability standards seems fine with me. If you pull a 16-week old fetus out of the womb and place it on a bed and feed it as you would a full term child, would it live? 20 weeks? 24 weeks?

But really, what does it matter? You're projecting your adult ethical views re the value of life onto a fetus. A fetus doesn't give a shit if it is miscarried or aborted.


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913178
02/13/19 10:43 PM
02/13/19 10:43 PM
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Yea, you're right. Let's just kill all dementia patients too, since they don't know any better. And I'm always good with supreme court rulings. After all, black abortions are only 3/5 human anyway. For the dimwitted, Google Dred Scott Before you reply.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913181
02/13/19 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Yea, you're right. Let's just kill all dementia patients too, since they don't know any better. And I'm always good with supreme court rulings. After all, black abortions are only 3/5 human anyway. For the dimwitted, Google Dred Scott Before you reply.


That sounds like a lot of emo.

Do you think you'll convince me otherwise because you really feel this?

There is no moral issue here. A fetus at 8 weeks is not viable. Other than perhaps to the woman making the choice herself, there is no impact to the world if she aborts. None. Nobody remembers the fetus or mourns their lost friend. Nobody is left without a husband or brother or friend. Just a sack of cells gone.

And if anyone wants to go through the assisted suicide process, I'm ok with it as long as the choice is made in a sound state of mind. Also not my issue or your issue or anyone else's issue but the person making the decision.


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913185
02/13/19 11:02 PM
02/13/19 11:02 PM
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No Stu,
I don't think I will convince you. I'd guess you've made up your mind decades ago.

Only the open minded and inquisitive change their world view after age 30. And that is really rare.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913189
02/13/19 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
No Stu,
I don't think I will convince you. I'd guess you've made up your mind decades ago.

Only the open minded and inquisitive change their world view after age 30. And that is really rare.


Lulz.

How old are you?

Will I change your mind?

You haven't even attempted to explain our moral obligation to a sack of cells. Or why you think it's appropriate to pin "think of all the friends he'll have one day" on a sack of cells.

What real downside is there to aborting a fetus that's not wanted by his mother?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913202
02/13/19 11:35 PM
02/13/19 11:35 PM
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1. Almost 58
2. On this one, probably not. Unless you can come up with a date that life begins. Then yes.
3. It's the same moral obligation that I have to everybody. I used to be pro capital punishment, but I thought about it some more, and decided it's not man's place to kill another, unless in self preservation, or preservation of the innocent. Is that "sack of cells alive and human? Until I know, I will be cautious and say yes.
4. The same downside to killing any orphan. You tell me, could you murder a hermit orphan, that nobody knows? It sounds like you could.


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Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913204
02/13/19 11:44 PM
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The hermit orphan would know you were killing him, unlike the 1st trimester fetus.

And a fetus is a person at 28 weeks.

How do you feel now?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913226
02/14/19 12:58 AM
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Medically the cutoff for premature births is at 22 weeks at most places. 22 weekers are viable outside of the womb. With medical technology advancing that number keeps getting lower.

Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913238
02/14/19 01:15 AM
02/14/19 01:15 AM
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everysurfr Offline
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
The hermit orphan would know you were killing him, unlike the 1st trimester fetus.

And a fetus is a person at 28 weeks.

How do you feel now?

The hermit wouldn't see it coming, sniper at 500 yards. Now it's ok?

Every fetus develops at the same rate? And then you would have to explain what your benchmarks are. So far, every benchmark doesn't universally apply, like the hermit orphan with a sniper.

And killing people, at least in my mind, is pretty serious.


*** You are ignoring this user ***
That is why I hate them for their stupidity. They were so close to greatness and squandered it.
https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934578&page=3
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913248
02/14/19 01:28 AM
02/14/19 01:28 AM
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StuAzole Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
The hermit orphan would know you were killing him, unlike the 1st trimester fetus.

And a fetus is a person at 28 weeks.

How do you feel now?

The hermit wouldn't see it coming, sniper at 500 yards. Now it's ok?

Every fetus develops at the same rate? And then you would have to explain what your benchmarks are. So far, every benchmark doesn't universally apply, like the hermit orphan with a sniper.

And killing people, at least in my mind, is pretty serious.


See, there is no date that will satisfy you. But to me it doesnt matter that much. Almost all abortion takes place well before a fetus is viable outside the womb. If a mom wants an abortion early on I have no problem with it.

Do you think there is a moral imperative to keep humans going? Are we obligated to perpetuate the species for some reason?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: tHe rAt] #2913249
02/14/19 01:32 AM
02/14/19 01:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 13,667
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StuAzole Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: tHe rAt
Medically the cutoff for premature births is at 22 weeks at most places. 22 weekers are viable outside of the womb. With medical technology advancing that number keeps getting lower.


And Im ok using that date as a guide to when abortion can be restricted, other than in cases of a threat to the mothers health. While I dont have any moral issues with abortion, Id much prefer them to happen sooner in the pregnancy than later.


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913256
02/14/19 01:42 AM
02/14/19 01:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,509
Santa Barbara County
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everysurfr Offline
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
The hermit orphan would know you were killing him, unlike the 1st trimester fetus.

And a fetus is a person at 28 weeks.

How do you feel now?

The hermit wouldn't see it coming, sniper at 500 yards. Now it's ok?

Every fetus develops at the same rate? And then you would have to explain what your benchmarks are. So far, every benchmark doesn't universally apply, like the hermit orphan with a sniper.

And killing people, at least in my mind, is pretty serious.


See, there is no date that will satisfy you. But to me it doesnt matter that much. Almost all abortion takes place well before a fetus is viable outside the womb. If a mom wants an abortion early on I have no problem with it.

Do you think there is a moral imperative to keep humans going? Are we obligated to perpetuate the species for some reason?

viability doesn't work for me, because there are many people with health issues that aren't viable. It isn't an excuse to kill them either.

No I don't think there is a moral imperative to keep people around. Everyone gets to decide their own fate. My view is really simple, and I've made it really clear, so I'm sure everyone understands it.

Many are made uncomfortable by it. But everyone's comfort isn't my obligation either.


*** You are ignoring this user ***
That is why I hate them for their stupidity. They were so close to greatness and squandered it.
https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934578&page=3
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr] #2913262
02/14/19 01:50 AM
02/14/19 01:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 13,667
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StuAzole Offline OP
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StuAzole  Offline OP
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Posts: 13,667
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
The hermit orphan would know you were killing him, unlike the 1st trimester fetus.

And a fetus is a person at 28 weeks.

How do you feel now?

The hermit wouldn't see it coming, sniper at 500 yards. Now it's ok?

Every fetus develops at the same rate? And then you would have to explain what your benchmarks are. So far, every benchmark doesn't universally apply, like the hermit orphan with a sniper.

And killing people, at least in my mind, is pretty serious.


See, there is no date that will satisfy you. But to me it doesnt matter that much. Almost all abortion takes place well before a fetus is viable outside the womb. If a mom wants an abortion early on I have no problem with it.

Do you think there is a moral imperative to keep humans going? Are we obligated to perpetuate the species for some reason?

viability doesn't work for me, because there are many people with health issues that aren't viable. It isn't an excuse to kill them either.

No I don't think there is a moral imperative to keep people around. Everyone gets to decide their own fate. My view is really simple, and I've made it really clear, so I'm sure everyone understands it.

Many are made uncomfortable by it. But everyone's comfort isn't my obligation either.


But it is your obligation to opine on issues that dont involve you at all? Weird.

Did you know that almost 10 million kids under 5 die every year, many in the first few months of life from preventable causes. Do you spend any time trying to right that wrong?


Bock you
Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole] #2913265
02/14/19 01:53 AM
02/14/19 01:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,509
Santa Barbara County
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everysurfr Offline
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Santa Barbara County
Not my obligation to opine. I drop my gems of wisdom gratuitously.

And yes, I do my part. I've got a bunch of sponsored world vision kids.


*** You are ignoring this user ***
That is why I hate them for their stupidity. They were so close to greatness and squandered it.
https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934578&page=3
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