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#2912038 - 02/11/19 03:08 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
GDaddy Offline
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Registered: 01/16/06
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So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.


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#2912041 - 02/11/19 03:21 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: GDaddy]
StuAzole Offline
Tom Curren status
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Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 12869
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.



Deferring to politics over science how?

Science is clear that 6 week old fetuses cant survive on their own. They also dont feel pain. I asked a pretty simple quest - if people want to make heartbeats the trigger for protection, how do you enforce and police?
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#2912079 - 02/11/19 04:37 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
everysurfr Online   content
Michael Peterson status
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I'm guessing we won't see any responses from the "pro life" crowd.

You would guess wrong.

On a side note, every minority can insist on being called whatever they want. So why do the pro choice insist on calling me anti choice, when my side prefers pro life? Because they are assholes maybe?

Now to answer the question at hand, no one has ever called for the pregnancy police. That's a total straw man.

I think morning after pill is ok, because that flushes the egg, and it takes a day or so for the little swimmers to find the target.

And nobody answered my question. If you don't know when the sperm/ egg becomes one of us, then you might just be killing babies. That's pretty heavy, if you ask me. Are you really willing to flip a coin about maybe killing a baby?
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#2912081 - 02/11/19 04:40 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
everysurfr Online   content
Michael Peterson status
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.



Deferring to politics over science how?

Science is clear that 6 week old fetuses cant survive on their own. They also dont feel pain. I asked a pretty simple quest - if people want to make heartbeats the trigger for protection, how do you enforce and police?



I just listened to a NPR segment on that today. Science is not clear when a fetus begins to feel pain. Brain cells divide on day two, if I remember correctly.
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#2912082 - 02/11/19 04:41 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
sizzld1 Online   content
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Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 5560
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You do not remember correctly. And even if you did, brain cells do not equal a brain much less a nervous system to go along with it.


Beyond that, your question has been answered ten times over -- you just don't like the answer. Meanwhile, you skip over the real implications that your argument would give rise to. And, as for your naming issues, pretty hard to complain when you and your ilk refer to the other side as baby killers. shrug


Edited by sizzld1 (02/11/19 04:43 PM)
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#2912085 - 02/11/19 04:43 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
everysurfr Online   content
Michael Peterson status
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.
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#2912086 - 02/11/19 04:44 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
sizzld1 Online   content
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Why are conserBBatives so terrible at analogies?
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#2912087 - 02/11/19 04:45 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: sizzld1]
everysurfr Online   content
Michael Peterson status
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
Originally Posted By: sizzld1
You do not remember correctly. And even if you did, brain cells do not equal a brain much less a nervous system to go along with it.


Beyond that, your question has been answered ten times over -- you just don't like the answer. Meanwhile, you skip over the real implications that your argument would give rise to. And, as for your naming issues, pretty hard to complain when you and your ilk refer to the other side as baby killers. shrug


It was answered?!? I missed it. At what point does a baby begin?
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#2912088 - 02/11/19 04:52 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
everysurfr Online   content
Michael Peterson status
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
Quote:
The early signs of a brain have begun to form. Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur.


Ok, there's a start. 5 weeks in, brain activity. We use brain activity as a test for death, so why not life?
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#2912097 - 02/11/19 05:03 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr]
StuAzole Offline
Tom Curren status
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Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 12869
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
So NOW deferring to politics over science is a bad thing? Kewl


I have serious problems with both sides of the argument. The right refuses to acknowledge that there are arguably legitimate reasons for killing certain babies prior to birth and that letting them live will likely strain societal resources to an unacceptable degree. And the left refuses to even acknowledge that it's babies they want to kill.

As for the argument "if men could have babies they're support abortion", the inverse is just as true "If men could choose abortion women would support life", because I guarantee you a certain percentage of the human race wouldn't even exist if men could opt out of fatherhood as quickly as women can opt out of motherhood.



Deferring to politics over science how?

Science is clear that 6 week old fetuses cant survive on their own. They also dont feel pain. I asked a pretty simple quest - if people want to make heartbeats the trigger for protection, how do you enforce and police?



I just listened to a NPR segment on that today. Science is not clear when a fetus begins to feel pain. Brain cells divide on day two, if I remember correctly.


Not really relevant to my question.

I'm assuming these laws making an embryo with a heartbeat a person will hit the books. I'm curious about all of the unanticipated issues.
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#2912100 - 02/11/19 05:07 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
everysurfr Online   content
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
How do you enforce? Same as any law. If a doctor says , "i do second trimenter abortions", lock him up.

Before an abortion, use heart monitor. You do your best.
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#2912101 - 02/11/19 05:07 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr]
StuAzole Offline
Tom Curren status
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Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 12869
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?
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#2912103 - 02/11/19 05:14 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
obslop Offline
Phil Edwards status
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Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 6316
Loc: san diego, CA
morally and ethically but not legally post-conception = human life.
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#2912108 - 02/11/19 05:20 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: everysurfr]
StuAzole Offline
Tom Curren status
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Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 12869
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
How do you enforce? Same as any law. If a doctor says , "i do second trimenter abortions", lock him up.

Before an abortion, use heart monitor. You do your best.


Why do you think making a fetus a person matters only to interactions with doctors? People pushing fetal heartbeat bills argue a fetus with a heartbeat is a viable person. Why would that logic only hold to doctors performing abortions? Women can induce miscarriages - is that murder after 6 weeks? Abortions can be had with a pill until about 10 weeks - is it murder after 6 weeks? How can you tell the difference between a "normal" miscarriage and a pill-induced abortion without a full investigation?
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#2912109 - 02/11/19 05:20 PM Re: Embryonic Life Protection [Re: StuAzole]
everysurfr Online   content
Michael Peterson status
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 2008
Loc: Santa Barbara County
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Now excuse me while I throw rocks over the wall into the playground. Maybe there is a kid I'm going to kill, maybe there isn't. I just don't know.

But you are all good with that, right? Less Groms in the line-up after all.


Why can't you answer my questions?

What if a baby is miscarried at 8 weeks, 2 weeks after a heartbeat? Autopsy? Investigation? Forced burial?

If a 6 month old dies, an investigation follows. If a fetus is a person, will there be miscarriage investigations? If a 6 month old is given vodka in her and dies, an investigation and charges would follow. If a mother drinks vodka and then miscarries, will investigation follow?


It's a silly question. A death under a doctor's care doesn't require autopsy. Will there be miscarriage investigations? Maybe if "foul play" is suspected. The law is already, if you assault a pregnant mom, and the baby dies, you get charged with murder.

Your questions are for a lawyer, not a surfing carpenter.
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