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Re: Abortion [Re: ifallalot] #2911182
02/09/19 05:24 PM
02/09/19 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: ovrevik
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
Originally Posted By: ovrevik
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
How about this.

Until you know the answer, the default is the kid is alive and human.

You demolish buildings until you KNOW there are no people alive inside.

You don't drive down the road until you KNOW there are no people standing in it.

You don't perform a D&C until you KNOW the kid isn't alive.

I don't want to hear about "it's the mother's body" because it isn't. It's the kids body getting killed.

No abortion unless the kid isn't viable, or the mother's life is in danger.

I've never heard a rational argument to disagree with this.

Engage me.


Rape
Underage pregnancies
Financial situation
Single parent situation
Education
Physically ill mother
Mentally ill mother
Hereditary diseases
Down syndrome
cerebral pareses
Crabs disease
Leukodystrophys
..etc..etc..etc..

lots of reasons why life is hard. But none of them would hold up against a person who is already born. We don't kill poor, diseased, downtrodden adults, so the same rule applies to the unborn.

Do you keep all your sperm in a freezer after you jerk off? They are living cells as well you know. Like a zygote or embryo, they can't survive outside your body.
Comparing an abortion, which is technically removing a bunch of cells that has no possibility for further growth outside the womb, to killing a child is not just crazy- It's extremely disrespectful to women all over the world who had to undergo abortion for various reasons.
These is getting closer to a rational reasons, but still doesn't hold up. There are many examples of people in reliance on others for survival. We don't allow them to be cut off.
A polio sufferer in an iron lung would not survive if the power was turned off.

Your next point comparing groups of cells being equal to an unborn baby. In every example, if left alone, those cells would never become a human. No matter what, sperm cells die off in about a week in your own body. A fertilized egg, once implanted in the mother, on the other hand, if left alone will become a baby.


I've NEVER heard a rational argument against abortion. But i don't buy into God, Allah or any of that crap either, and that's usually the reason behind all the anti abortion psychos.
God has nothing to do with this. I don't need God to tell me not to kick puppies either.

You haven't addressed my point. The one that nobody has ever answered for me. When is the exact moment that a fertilized egg becomes human? It is a grey transition.
At some point in the process, we all agree that to kill it is murder. But when is that moment? And if you are one second after that moment, you are a baby killer. And unless you know that answer, abortion is reckless.


That answer is not difficult-
First trimester- The nervous system isn't developed. This is a really safe place to draw a line. Free abortion in this period should be granted without any specific cause.

Second trimester- After week 22 it's possible to save premature babies (but ethically dilemma occurs here because of high premature birth defects). Abortion because of medical reasons should be granted in this period.

Third trimester- unless there's some serious underlying medical cause abortion should not be granted.

Calling women child murderers because of abortion shows you have no idea what you are're talking about.
It's not only vicious, but it's a dangerous attitude to have.
About 30 000 women dies every year because they don't have access to legal abortion clinics.


That 30,000 number seems extremely high, but otherwise I agree with the rest of your assertions about the trimester


https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/...ence-and-safety

Re: Abortion [Re: StuAzole] #2911185
02/09/19 05:27 PM
02/09/19 05:27 PM
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Dudes who care about women they don't know killing their fetuses made by some other dude trip me out.

It's like Squildlys obsession with the gays.


We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Abortion [Re: ovrevik] #2911190
02/09/19 05:33 PM
02/09/19 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: ovrevik
[

That answer is not difficult-
First trimester- The nervous system isn't developed. This is a really safe place to draw a line. Free abortion in this period should be granted without any specific cause.

Second trimester- After week 22 it's possible to save premature babies (but ethically dilemma occurs here because of high premature birth defects). Abortion because of medical reasons should be granted in this period.

Third trimester- unless there's some serious underlying medical cause abortion should not be granted.

Calling women child murderers because of abortion shows you have no idea what you are're talking about.
It's not only vicious, but it's a dangerous attitude to have.
About 30 000 women dies every year because they don't have access to legal abortion clinics.



The development of a nervous system in interesting as a benchmark. But it still comes back to how many cells does it take for it take to become a nervous system. At just a few days, nervous system cells begin forming what will become the brain. That's just a few days. So do you know how many brain cells are needed before it is human? I don't. So I'm back at, if you don't know if it is human life, you don't gamble.

Your second point is a numbers game. You will loose that one. For every mother who dies, there are 1000's of unborn babies who died.

If you want to save both lives, destigmatize giving a baby up for adoption. Give support to pregnant mothers.

I'll take baby steps. I can't save the world's problems. I can't save 30,000 pregnant mothers. (On the side, I wonder what makes up that number. How would safe abortion change that number.)

Let's just stay within our own borders. It's not our place to rule the world.

And using language like calling me vicious for questioning when life begins says a lot about your dogma. Question everything, always.

Last edited by everysurfr; 02/09/19 05:35 PM.

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Re: Abortion [Re: StuAzole] #2911192
02/09/19 05:35 PM
02/09/19 05:35 PM
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Who is going to pay for the unwanted children? We all know the loudest complainers about abortion don't want a dime of their tax dollars to help single moms or poor children.

Last edited by mundus; 02/09/19 05:49 PM.
Re: Abortion [Re: ifallalot] #2911197
02/09/19 05:45 PM
02/09/19 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
How about this.

Until you know the answer, the default is the kid is alive and human.

You demolish buildings until you KNOW there are no people alive inside.

You don't drive down the road until you KNOW there are no people standing in it.

You don't perform a D&C until you KNOW the kid isn't alive.

I don't want to hear about "it's the mother's body" because it isn't. It's the kids body getting killed.

No abortion unless the kid isn't viable, or the mother's life is in danger.

I've never heard a rational argument to disagree with this.

Engage me.

No one is arguing with you because they can't deny what you're saying

I thought you hated false analogies?

You and all your buddies only cry false analogy when you don't like the outcome of the analogy. I probably do it too. Nothing Is truly analogous if you add enough NUANCE!

roflmao roflmao thats exactly what you do.

Re: Abortion [Re: everysurfr] #2911199
02/09/19 05:50 PM
02/09/19 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr

Let's just stay within our own borders. It's not our place to rule the world.

.


So you just want to rule over women who are within a certain distance from you?

Okay.





We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Abortion [Re: mundus] #2911200
02/09/19 05:50 PM
02/09/19 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: mundus
Who is going to pay for the unwanted children?


My brother adopted two little girls from China. It took a year, and tens if not a hundred thousand dollars.

There is no shortage of parents willing to pay.


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Re: Abortion [Re: ovrevik] #2911201
02/09/19 05:52 PM
02/09/19 05:52 PM
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I see a 22k number in that article but I guess when you're taking 7 billion people into account even a fractional percentage is going to come out as a high number


MUELLER IS COMING batman
Re: Abortion [Re: Autoprax] #2911203
02/09/19 05:53 PM
02/09/19 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Autoprax
Dudes who care about women they don't know killing their fetuses made by some other dude trip me out.

It's like Squildlys obsession with the gays.


So we should also be ok with the murder of any children if they aren't ours?


MUELLER IS COMING batman
Re: Abortion [Re: Autoprax] #2911204
02/09/19 05:53 PM
02/09/19 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Autoprax
Originally Posted By: everysurfr

Let's just stay within our own borders. It's not our place to rule the world.

.


So you just want to rule over women who are within a certain distance from you?

Okay.


You got me... I like it when American laws stop Americans from doing bad things.


*** You are ignoring this user ***
That is why I hate them for their stupidity. They were so close to greatness and squandered it.
https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2934578&page=3
Re: Abortion [Re: everysurfr] #2911209
02/09/19 06:06 PM
02/09/19 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: everysurfr
My brother adopted two little girls from China. It took a year, and tens if not a hundred thousand dollars.
There is no shortage of parents willing to pay.

Big prop's to your brother for wanting them, taking on on the responsibility of raising those little girls.

That said, I also agree with this:
Originally Posted By: mundus
Who is going to pay for the unwanted children? We all know the loudest complainers about abortion don't want a dime of their tax dollars to help single moms or poor children.

Years ago,
there were only 4 billion pep's on this Earth. Now there are 7.53 billion.
Everyone bitches about how crowded the surf is, how bad traffic is, how f**ked up thee world is.
But whoooah unto them if a female wants to abort her un~wanted pregnancy. Pffft.

My lil' opinion?
ONLY WOMEN should make ANY laws about abortion.
But that's wrong huh, not lettin' a dude have a say in what happens inside a womans body, right?


Last edited by RWVBWL; 02/09/19 06:10 PM.
Re: Abortion [Re: mundus] #2911211
02/09/19 06:10 PM
02/09/19 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: mundus
Who is going to pay for the unwanted children? We all know the loudest complainers about abortion don't want a dime of their tax dollars to help single moms or poor children.
How about this. Let's make it affordable for poor single moms by legalizing a womans right to perform her own abortion up until age 18. Obviously some rules will have to made regarding the disposition of the corpse but that's just a technical exercise.

This would let the woman decide- maybe she started out wanting the kid but wasn't really cool with the cost and by age 5 decided to abort/euthanize. She'd save tons of money doing it herself.
What better way to help poor women?


"...now tell me that wasn't fun!" Capt. Jack Aubrey
Re: Abortion [Re: StuAzole] #2911212
02/09/19 06:12 PM
02/09/19 06:12 PM
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I like it!


We all know what we hate.

We just don't know what we want.


Re: Abortion [Re: CharmingSophisticate] #2911221
02/09/19 06:19 PM
02/09/19 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: CharmingSophisticate
Originally Posted By: mundus
Who is going to pay for the unwanted children? We all know the loudest complainers about abortion don't want a dime of their tax dollars to help single moms or poor children.
How about this. Let's make it affordable for poor single moms by legalizing a womans right to perform her own abortion up until age 18. Obviously some rules will have to made regarding the disposition of the corpse but that's just a technical exercise.

This would let the woman decide- maybe she started out wanting the kid but wasn't really cool with the cost and by age 5 decided to abort/euthanize. She'd save tons of money doing it herself.
What better way to help poor women?
Besides the obvious safety concerns of do it yourself abortions, I like it.

Re: Abortion [Re: ifallalot] #2911222
02/09/19 06:24 PM
02/09/19 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: everysurfr
How about this.

Until you know the answer, the default is the kid is alive and human.

You demolish buildings until you KNOW there are no people alive inside.

You don't drive down the road until you KNOW there are no people standing in it.

You don't perform a D&C until you KNOW the kid isn't alive.

I don't want to hear about "it's the mother's body" because it isn't. It's the kids body getting killed.

No abortion unless the kid isn't viable, or the mother's life is in danger.

I've never heard a rational argument to disagree with this.

Engage me.

No one is arguing with you because they can't deny what you're saying

I thought you hated false analogies?

You and all your buddies only cry false analogy when you don't like the outcome of the analogy. I probably do it too. Nothing Is truly analogous if you add enough NUANCE!


Analogies don't have outcomes dumbass.

They're either false or they're not.

And fetus is not a "kid".


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
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