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#2896857 - 01/11/19 02:18 PM Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? [Re: oneula]
ElOgro Offline
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Originally Posted By: oneula
Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Originally Posted By: oneula
like cuzin Joe Wong (whoDat) so eloquently said

in the end what did the greal wall do for china other than become a tourist attraction thousands of years later
and I don't think that other wall in Berlin did too well in the end

Great walls end up being nothing but phallic symbols for those that build them

its like the software and procedural walls used to protect customers from malware, and viruses they end up being temporary fixes. No matter high high and how good they are in the beginning, they are only of temporary value.

you have to change basic human behavior, fix the source and get rid of the incentives to make a permanent impact.




Good luck changing basic human behavior, at least here in Mexico. If it can be corrupted, its been corrupted. At all levels. lol into the huachicolero deal thats happening here right now as an example. The political machine and the associated organized crime that you grew up with on Oahu is a minuscule example. Here its institutional. Womb to tomb.



I don't think you can "fix" mexico

but then again the immigration issue is no longer a mexican problem but a central american problem. They just happen to be using mexico as their pathway. The US needs to "fix" the problem in south america. Maybe bring in the chinese like what's been happening in africa, the middle east and southeast asia with their "belt and road initiative". They don't need to run their US outsource operations in china which they've already over polluted because of it but they can outsource their outsource service to central america and exploit that labor market with their technology and construction resources like they are doing in africa.

If you can get rid of the economic and safety issues that have created the incentives for the current mass migration then it should taper off. I'm sure china or russia wants to get their hands on what ever natural resources central america has to offer. And both of those countries historically are pretty adept at controlling and getting rid of dissidents in their own countries. I'm sure they would have no problems helping governments with military support and arms to stabilize their regimes like the USA did with the Shah in Iran and with Saddam did in Iraq after Iran contra before cheney and the US oil boys want a piece of their pie.

There's also an underground theory that Canada, Mexico and the US should just become one big country like china and russia to take advantage of their geography to compete against china and russia. Lost of untapped oil lands in canada and lots of untapped labor in mexico. Just give the reigns to a trump or disfunctional congress and make canada and mexico another Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam and American Samoa. Hell Mexico and Canada could become the 51 and 52 states. You never know with all the uncontrolled corruption down south and ethic cross pollenization that has occurred between the cultures of the three countries over the centuries. People/culturally wise the borders are meaningless, it just created more government jobs. Less government is better, Lets just put it all under one rule.

Freakonomics on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGezXRu8u2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yRxXcefrPM&t=425s

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/china-eat-americas-jobs/


Why stop in the Western Hemisphere?

Who gets to call the shots?
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#2896867 - 01/11/19 02:45 PM Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? [Re: hal9000]
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^^^ Eggxactly. We really need to get away from the idea that we can "give" other nations democracy or the rule of law or social enlightenment or anything other than a trading partner and possibly a security alliance.
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#2896970 - 01/11/19 07:12 PM Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? [Re: hal9000]
Gnudz Offline
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What the idiots who want this wall to keep immigrants out don't understand is that rather than keeping immigrants out, walls mostly keep immigrants from going back home after they've come here to work.

Before we built a bunch of walls in the 70's, 80's and especially the 90's, immigration was largely circular. Immigrants would come here to work and then go back home, often crossing back and forth multiple times. As barriers on the border made crossings more & more dangerous, immigrant workers stopped going back home and began staying here and bringing their families here.

The wall does nothing to stop immigration (or terrorism, drugs, etc...) as long as we keep paying immigrants to come here. They risk their lives coming here because we as a country keep paying them to come here.

So the idiot racist xenophobes who want this wall to keep foreigners out are really working to keep them from ever leaving once they get here. Sheer stupidity. Frightened and heartless stupidity.
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#2896981 - 01/11/19 07:33 PM Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? [Re: Gnudz]
CharmingSophisticate Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gnudz
What the idiots who want this wall to keep immigrants out don't understand is that rather than keeping immigrants out, walls mostly keep immigrants from going back home after they've come here to work.

Before we built a bunch of walls in the 70's, 80's and especially the 90's, immigration was largely circular. Immigrants would come here to work and then go back home, often crossing back and forth multiple times. As barriers on the border made crossings more & more dangerous, immigrant workers stopped going back home and began staying here and bringing their families here.

The wall does nothing to stop immigration (or terrorism, drugs, etc...) as long as we keep paying immigrants to come here. They risk their lives coming here because we as a country keep paying them to come here.

So the idiot racist xenophobes who want this wall to keep foreigners out are really working to keep them from ever leaving once they get here. Sheer stupidity. Frightened and heartless stupidity.

A)Why would Mexicans go back to Mexico by going around (presumably on foot) the border crossing?

B) Why are you assuming that illegal immigrants are all, or mostly Mexicans?
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#2896995 - 01/11/19 08:12 PM Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? [Re: CharmingSophisticate]
Gnudz Offline
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Originally Posted By: CharmingSophisticate
Originally Posted By: Gnudz
What the idiots who want this wall to keep immigrants out don't understand is that rather than keeping immigrants out, walls mostly keep immigrants from going back home after they've come here to work.

Before we built a bunch of walls in the 70's, 80's and especially the 90's, immigration was largely circular. Immigrants would come here to work and then go back home, often crossing back and forth multiple times. As barriers on the border made crossings more & more dangerous, immigrant workers stopped going back home and began staying here and bringing their families here.

The wall does nothing to stop immigration (or terrorism, drugs, etc...) as long as we keep paying immigrants to come here. They risk their lives coming here because we as a country keep paying them to come here.

So the idiot racist xenophobes who want this wall to keep foreigners out are really working to keep them from ever leaving once they get here. Sheer stupidity. Frightened and heartless stupidity.

A)Why would Mexicans go back to Mexico by going around (presumably on foot) the border crossing?

B) Why are you assuming that illegal immigrants are all, or mostly Mexicans?


I thought it was pretty clear that since we're discussing the WALL that I was only referencing those immigrants that would be affected by it.

I never said immigrants returned to their home countries via the dangerous cross-country roots, but when they come back to the US to work the jobs we pay them to, they are often forced to take routes that are increasingly dangerous and often deadly. Better not to go back home at all if you risk dying on your way back to work.

When we are talking about immigration on the southern border, the border where Trump wants to build his wall, we are talking about the immigrant labor that said wall would supposedly be a barrier against, no? At no point did I say they were "all, or mostly Mexicans." Most immigration across our southern border lately comes from countries further south than Mexico.
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