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Fixing Government Services #2896284
01/10/19 08:24 AM
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I know some will have a harsher view of the effectiveness of government agencies
such as DMV, IRS, DoE, and Homeland Security.

What are the fundamental problems with government run services in your experience?

How could the system be improved?

I'm asking from the point of view that privatization and profit motive don't always ensure
a better experience at a lower total cost to the taxpayer?


I, for one, think government retirement and benefit packages are obscene.


damn. using courier font. that is fooking aggressive man.
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896291
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In the private sector hiring, pay and advancement are generally based on performance rather than time on the job.......therefore many government employees are just taking up space and doing the time and don't give a shit.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896306
01/10/19 01:13 PM
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Theres no consequence for failure

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896315
01/10/19 02:20 PM
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Government employees should not be unionized.


No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn

- The Wasp
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896316
01/10/19 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: afoaf
I know some will have a harsher view of the effectiveness of government agencies
such as DMV, IRS, DoE, and Homeland Security.

What are the fundamental problems with government run services in your experience?

How could the system be improved?

I'm asking from the point of view that privatization and profit motive don't always ensure
a better experience at a lower total cost to the taxpayer?


I, for one, think government retirement and benefit packages are obscene.



Can you provide a specific example of an obscene retirement and benefit package?

In the old days federal employees had much better benefits. In the last 20 years things have changed greatly. Federal employees have a TSP account which is the same as a 401k which the government matches up to 5%. As far as I know this is very similar to the private sector. Then there is a pension which is paltry. Again, nothing like what federal employees received 20 years ago.

Pay during service is much lower than the same job in the private sector. You do realize the government employs doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, right? All paid far below what their private sector counterparts are paid. So they get a paltry pension and decent health insurance instead? Advancement in the federal government is performance based so not sure where Gromy gets that it doesn't. Fox news?

Federal employees are an easy target when people don't know what the F they are talking about. Are there lazy fed employees? Definitely. Are there lazy private sector employees? Definitely. I have friends that work in both. I had a friend that worked for AIG and got 80k a year bonuses and played golf all day.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896317
01/10/19 02:48 PM
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trevor, what you describe does not jive with what I see with my friends who have government jobs.......some of whom have recently retired or are near retirement at very young ages.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896318
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I think it does jive. If they are near retirement age they may have been in the old "postal service" system of benefits which were quite generous. (some would say fair as salaries were lower than in private sector) I'm not sure exactly what year the new system took place but government retirement packages are no where near what they once were.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896319
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Most of the people I know are at the municipal government level but a few at the state and federal level. Are they killing it like guys on wall street of course not but they are all doing considerably better than the average joe when you factor the benefits and pensions.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896324
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They are doing better than the average joe because they all have college degrees and many have masters and doctorates. They have lower pay but good health care so a health issue won't bankrupt them like the average joe.

My mother worked for the State of NH for almost 40 years. Her salary in those 40 years went from around 30k to 50k. (that's an f-ing joke) She's the hardest working most dedicated person I know. She helped the disabled find jobs. If people are working they are less likely to need welfare. She has a BA from Catholic University in D.C. and a masters from Boston University.

Again, can the government do things better? Yes. There is all sorts of waste and laziness in the private sector as well. The same companies that end up paying no taxes.

The scapegoating of public employees is shameful.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896327
01/10/19 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: afoaf
I know some will have a harsher view of the effectiveness of government agencies
such as DMV, IRS, DoE, and Homeland Security.

What are the fundamental problems with government run services in your experience?

How could the system be improved?

I'm asking from the point of view that privatization and profit motive don't always ensure
a better experience at a lower total cost to the taxpayer?


I, for one, think government retirement and benefit packages are obscene.



Can you provide a specific example of an obscene retirement and benefit package?

In the old days federal employees had much better benefits. In the last 20 years things have changed greatly. Federal employees have a TSP account which is the same as a 401k which the government matches up to 5%. As far as I know this is very similar to the private sector. Then there is a pension which is paltry. Again, nothing like what federal employees received 20 years ago.

Pay during service is much lower than the same job in the private sector. You do realize the government employs doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, right? All paid far below what their private sector counterparts are paid. So they get a paltry pension and decent health insurance instead? Advancement in the federal government is performance based so not sure where Gromy gets that it doesn't. Fox news?

Federal employees are an easy target when people don't know what the F they are talking about. Are there lazy fed employees? Definitely. Are there lazy private sector employees? Definitely. I have friends that work in both. I had a friend that worked for AIG and got 80k a year bonuses and played golf all day.


Annuities also have lower returns than most other investments

Risk adjusted return

Fed workers have effectively guaranteed employment for life

So they should be paid less

But theyre really not when you take into account benefits

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896330
01/10/19 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
They are doing better than the average joe because they all have college degrees and many have masters and doctorates. They have lower pay but good health care so a health issue won't bankrupt them like the average joe.

My mother worked for the State of NH for almost 40 years. Her salary in those 40 years went from around 30k to 50k. (that's an f-ing joke) She's the hardest working most dedicated person I know. She helped the disabled find jobs. If people are working they are less likely to need welfare. She has a BA from Catholic University in D.C. and a masters from Boston University.

Again, can the government do things better? Yes. There is all sorts of waste and laziness in the private sector as well. The same companies that end up paying no taxes.

The scapegoating of public employees is shameful.


My mother was a social worker too

Also had a masters degree

She made the same

Thats what social workers make

She didnt work for the govt so got shit benefits though

Most govt workers get a better deal than they would get in private sector

Its only the top slice where private sector comp is better

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896334
01/10/19 03:27 PM
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Something something Autoprax frames


My entire existence is a failed gotcha
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896338
01/10/19 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: trevorbc
They are doing better than the average joe because they all have college degrees and many have masters and doctorates. They have lower pay but good health care so a health issue won't bankrupt them like the average joe.

My mother worked for the State of NH for almost 40 years. Her salary in those 40 years went from around 30k to 50k. (that's an f-ing joke) She's the hardest working most dedicated person I know. She helped the disabled find jobs. If people are working they are less likely to need welfare. She has a BA from Catholic University in D.C. and a masters from Boston University.

Again, can the government do things better? Yes. There is all sorts of waste and laziness in the private sector as well. The same companies that end up paying no taxes.

The scapegoating of public employees is shameful.


My mother was a social worker too

Also had a masters degree

She made the same

Thats what social workers make

She didnt work for the govt so got shit benefits though

Most govt workers get a better deal than they would get in private sector

Its only the top slice where private sector comp is better


This just isn't true.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: ifallalot] #2896339
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Something something Autoprax frames


Huh?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896344
01/10/19 03:41 PM
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I see two problems.

1. People want shit and don't want to pay.
Try taking away the average 65+ Trump voters' Medicare Part D. You think there was a backlash to drug testing benefits recipients, try alcohol and tobacco testing them. LOLZ.

I know people who think we should have Australia/Canada/UK care, and their taxes shouldn't go up. Middle/Upper Middle class, pay Federal Income Tax, not just payroll tax, and think this is somehow not going to cost them more if they don't get sick. They think there is that much money in "waste". Even the DoD only finds about $100B/year.

2. Open-ended benefits packages.
Entire families getting health care for life because one person worked in government...I get it, that was part of their benefits packages, but pensions and health care costs sound like a really, really big unfunded liability problem.

Places like California, well you have Silicon Valley minting money, and in California's case, the politicians actually tax to pay for the spending. I applaud their arithmetic, but their voters howl.

Decrepit shit piles like Illinois, well...yeah.


"Can you ask if she'll blow me too?" - Autoprax
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896346
01/10/19 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: trevorbc
They are doing better than the average joe because they all have college degrees and many have masters and doctorates. They have lower pay but good health care so a health issue won't bankrupt them like the average joe.

My mother worked for the State of NH for almost 40 years. Her salary in those 40 years went from around 30k to 50k. (that's an f-ing joke) She's the hardest working most dedicated person I know. She helped the disabled find jobs. If people are working they are less likely to need welfare. She has a BA from Catholic University in D.C. and a masters from Boston University.

Again, can the government do things better? Yes. There is all sorts of waste and laziness in the private sector as well. The same companies that end up paying no taxes.

The scapegoating of public employees is shameful.


My mother was a social worker too

Also had a masters degree

She made the same

Thats what social workers make

She didnt work for the govt so got shit benefits though

Most govt workers get a better deal than they would get in private sector

Its only the top slice where private sector comp is better


This just isn't true.


https://fee.org/articles/a-look-at-pay-f...r-counterparts/

a 2017 Congressional Budget Office study compared the compensation of full-time, year-round private sector workers to non-postal, civilian, federal workers in 2011 to 2015. It accounted for education, occupation, work experience, geographic location, employer size, and various demographic characteristics. The study found that:

Federal workers received an average of 17 percent more total compensation than comparable private sector workers.
Across various education levels, federal employee compensation premiums ranged from a low of 18 percent for workers with a professional degree or doctorate to a high of 53 percent for workers with a high school diploma or less:

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896349
01/10/19 03:50 PM
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Did you read the whole article? You omitted 90% of it and only quoted the line that supported your position.

https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/201...o-finds/137324/

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: Sharkbiscuit] #2896351
01/10/19 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sharkbiscuit
I see two problems.

1. People want shit and don't want to pay.
Try taking away the average 65+ Trump voters' Medicare Part D. You think there was a backlash to drug testing benefits recipients, try alcohol and tobacco testing them. LOLZ.

I know people who think we should have Australia/Canada/UK care, and their taxes shouldn't go up. Middle/Upper Middle class, pay Federal Income Tax, not just payroll tax, and think this is somehow not going to cost them more if they don't get sick. They think there is that much money in "waste". Even the DoD only finds about $100B/year.

2. Open-ended benefits packages.
Entire families getting health care for life because one person worked in government...I get it, that was part of their benefits packages, but pensions and health care costs sound like a really, really big unfunded liability problem.

Places like California, well you have Silicon Valley minting money, and in California's case, the politicians actually tax to pay for the spending. I applaud their arithmetic, but their voters howl.

Decrepit shit piles like Illinois, well...yeah.


Entire families don't get healthcare for life because one person worked in the government. Can you provide your source for this? First of all, per Obamacare, dependents can only be on your health insurance until 26. Federal employees get like three months of health insurance when they retire. Many would be of medicare age after that expires?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896352
01/10/19 03:59 PM
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What part of what I quoted do you disagree with?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896358
01/10/19 04:15 PM
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Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896360
01/10/19 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
What part of what I quoted do you disagree with?


The article's conclusion:

"The pay gap between federal and private sector employees grew between 2011 and 2015 for those with high school diplomas or less when compared with 2005 to 2010, while federal workers with a masters degree saw less average total compensation from 2011 to 2015 compared with their counterparts in the private sector."

So what that means is that the very entry level federal worker (someone picking up trash and other blue collar jobs) does do better than their private sector counter part however everyone else does worse. Not just the very top as you stated. Most federal jobs are white collar.

The study also factored in all of the federal employees that are part of the old system. As soon as that group retires the gap will be even greater.

Anyway you have your deep state clerk agenda so go with it I guess. Keep hating and resenting your fellow american's that make very average salaries providing you 1st world services while trillions are spent on endless wars and CEOs make a 1000x what their employees make.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896362
01/10/19 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Can you provide the source showing that starting pay for teachers and firemen in your town is over 80k? I don't buy it.

That said, if is is true, at least for teachers, I would say your town is doing well. You don't think teachers should be well compensated? What job is worth 80k to you?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896371
01/10/19 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc

Entire families don't get healthcare for life because one person worked in the government. Can you provide your source for this? First of all, per Obamacare, dependents can only be on your health insurance until 26. Federal employees get like three months of health insurance when they retire. Many would be of medicare age after that expires?


Quote:

Your FEHB coverage (Federal Employees Health Benefits) is an important benefit while youre working, and if you meet the eligibility rules, you and your spouse can keep the benefit for the rest of your lives in retirement. Bonus: the share of cost remains the same, too.


https://www.fedsmith.com/2018/05/06/keep-fehb-health-insurance-retire/

Sorry the wording implied adult children and grandchildren were getting their benefits for life.

The most successful person I know (business owner with beautiful house, beautiful boat, beautiful 911...) is on his wife's (gov) health insurance, and he seems to think that benefits package is worth its weight in unobtanium.


"Can you ask if she'll blow me too?" - Autoprax
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896372
01/10/19 04:43 PM
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The VA is a very difficult agency to deal with. The standards of care vary a lot depending upon location and in general I think it is both dramatically underfunded/understaffed and undermanaged. The scandals that keep emerging are a shameful catalog of our treatment of Vets when the cameras aren't on.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896377
01/10/19 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Theres no consequence for failure


Ethics.

Put in charge people who know what that means.

Not people who hate government and Trumptards.


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896379
01/10/19 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Can you provide the source showing that starting pay for teachers and firemen in your town is over 80k? I don't buy it.

That said, if is is true, at least for teachers, I would say your town is doing well. You don't think teachers should be well compensated? What job is worth 80k to you?



Like I said, I'm not complaining.......but don't complain to me about the plight of dear old mom working in New Hampshire.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896380
01/10/19 04:55 PM
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In most cases underfunding is the problem.

The services that work well, work because they're funded properly (Pentagon).


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896381
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Here is a link for NJ Teachers. You can look up any teacher you want in any district you want: https://php.app.com/agent/educationstaff/search


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896382
01/10/19 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/new-jersey/#by-seniority

Last edited by heelnipstr; 01/10/19 05:03 PM. Reason: link

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Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: heelnipstr] #2896383
01/10/19 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.


If teachers started at $80k, more people would want to be teachers.


Bock you
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896384
01/10/19 05:06 PM
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Just anecdotes but Ive seen coworkers come in and out of Fed govt

Fed govt pays less for people in my line of work but provides advantages in other ways (job security, better hrs, more time off, better benefits)

For some the trade off is worth it, others not

Seems like there is no much problem in filling most govt positions so I dont think the deal is too bad

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: heelnipstr] #2896387
01/10/19 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/new-jersey/#by-seniority


That's fairly dismal. But in addition to that number, don't they get full medical, dental as well as retirement benefits?


Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: FecalFace] #2896388
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Originally Posted By: FecalFace
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Theres no consequence for failure


Ethics.

Put in charge people who know what that means.

Not people who hate government and Trumptards.


Ethics are great but being able to be fired is a strong motivator

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896389
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Here is a link for NJ Teachers. You can look up any teacher you want in any district you want: https://php.app.com/agent/educationstaff/search


There are a lot of salaries under 80k in there. I thought starting was 80? Do you feel teachers should be paid less?

Dear old mom doesn't feel there is any "plight." I just personally feel that her contribution to society was worth a lot more than 50k a year. Forget society even, how about what she did for the economy, working to get people off benefits and into meaningful jobs? My example was to illustrate that if you don't know a hard working underpaid public employee it is easy to point the finger. I have friends in the private sector and it seems they are on Facebook all day. How is that?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896391
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Theres no consequence for failure


Ethics.

Put in charge people who know what that means.

Not people who hate government and Trumptards.


Ethics are great but being able to be fired is a strong motivator


Another myth: public sector employees can't get fired. Dude, this isn't 1980.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GWS] #2896392
01/10/19 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: GWS
Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/new-jersey/#by-seniority


That's fairly dismal. But doesn't that include full medical, dental as well as retirement benefits?


Whats the present value of a 20 yr + retirement with 80% pension and top health care benefits?

That said, I dont really have a problem with paying teachers well

They provide a very important service and it is a hard job

I have more of an issue with back office govt clerks claiming they have it rough

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: StuAzole] #2896393
01/10/19 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.


If teachers started at $80k, more people would want to be teachers.



$80k to be Rowan County Clerk. $80k goes a looooooooooooooooooong way halfway between Lexington, KY and Huntington, WV. I would have the sickest property with deer to drop all over the place on that.



Other than the year of "general office experience" and "driver's license", I had these qualifications after my Sophomore year of High School. Can't drive and didn't have a credit card when I was 15.

Based on the accounting classes I took in 10th and 11th grade, I think the average 16 year old in a high school accounting class in Rowan County could do this job.

It's 2019. Touch-typing and MS Office as requirements....right up there with opposable thumbs and ability to respirate orally and nasally.

https://www.betterteam.com/county-clerk-job-description

Quote:
County Clerk Requirements:
High School Diploma or GED.
One year work experience as a municipal or County Clerk, or one year general office experience.
Proficient computer and typing skills.
Basic accounting skills.
Proficient with MS Office Word, Outlook and Excel, and familiar with data entry.
Excellent verbal and written communication skills.
Strong people skills.
Valid drivers license.
Completion of online application.
Ability to maintain confidentiality and security of information.
Bondable to handle money.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896395
01/10/19 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Here is a link for NJ Teachers. You can look up any teacher you want in any district you want: https://php.app.com/agent/educationstaff/search


Marven Atlantic Atlantic City Sovereign Avenue School Mathematics Grades 5 - 8 $101,307

I bet Marven has more than just a B.A. I bet most of the educators on that list have more than a B.A. If Marven has a wife and one child and student loans do you think he is living the high life? On that salary with student loans could he save 20% to buy a house in your town? Is he even middle class? You think this is a real waste of your tax dollars?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896397
01/10/19 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Here is a link for NJ Teachers. You can look up any teacher you want in any district you want: https://php.app.com/agent/educationstaff/search


There are a lot of salaries under 80k in there. I thought starting was 80? Do you feel teachers should be paid less?

Dear old mom doesn't feel there is any "plight." I just personally feel that her contribution to society was worth a lot more than 50k a year. Forget society even, how about what she did for the economy, working to get people off benefits and into meaningful jobs? My example was to illustrate that if you don't know a hard working underpaid public employee it is easy to point the finger. I have friends in the private sector and it seems they are on Facebook all day. How is that?



I agree with you generally on this

The world is not a fair place

Pay does not always reflect value to society

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896403
01/10/19 05:36 PM
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A lot of people have degrees and dont get paid much

Go to any university town and observe all of the poor adjuncts with PHDs

Only in govt do you get automatic raises for things like this

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: heelnipstr] #2896409
01/10/19 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/new-jersey/#by-seniority


Its municipality by municipality.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GWS] #2896411
01/10/19 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: GWS
Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/new-jersey/#by-seniority


That's fairly dismal. But in addition to that number, don't they get full medical, dental as well as retirement benefits?



That's $4K more than the national average. I don't know about NJ but I did get dental(wisdom teeth finally removed) and my medical was taken out of my salary(not that much I think). Even starting w/ a MEd my salary was much less than $50k 20 something years ago in the great state of CA. bawling


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Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896413
01/10/19 05:51 PM
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Ok. Show us a link to where starting salaries for school teachers are $80k in your municipality. Good luck.


"I love it when people who are supposed to be surfers.....posting on a surfing forum.....don't know the difference between stoke and stock." - GromsDad
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Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896416
01/10/19 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
A lot of people have degrees and dont get paid much

Go to any university town and observe all of the poor adjuncts with PHDs

Only in govt do you get automatic raises for things like this


You don't get an automatic raise for having an advanced degree. You may come in at a higher pay level if you have an advanced degree but that is negotiated. Isn't that true in the private sector as well? People with advanced degrees are in a better position to negotiate a higher wage. People with advanced degrees make more money no matter in what sector.

Is the problem that the government provides a pension and healthcare or is it that the private sector doesn't? I can't see every small business being able to afford this but many large companies certainly could. Provide healthcare for life for your career workers or buy back your stock? Give your CEO a 10 million dollar bonus? If the government can afford trillions and trillions of dollars in foreign wars certainly it can afford to take care of its public servants? (I'm not talking about politicians)

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: sizzld1] #2896421
01/10/19 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: sizzld1
Ok. Show us a link to where starting salaries for school teachers are $80k in your municipality. Good luck.


And one public school district is going to pay $30K more for a starting position than another. LOL If true the haves and have nots are having their way. No starting teacher is worth $30k than another. They are all just fodder for little devils to learn to survive or be eaten.


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Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896423
01/10/19 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
A lot of people have degrees and dont get paid much

Go to any university town and observe all of the poor adjuncts with PHDs

Only in govt do you get automatic raises for things like this


You don't get an automatic raise for having an advanced degree. You may come in at a higher pay level if you have an advanced degree but that is negotiated. Isn't that true in the private sector as well? People with advanced degrees are in a better position to negotiate a higher wage. People with advanced degrees make more money no matter in what sector.

Is the problem that the government provides a pension and healthcare or is it that the private sector doesn't? I can't see every small business being able to afford this but many large companies certainly could. Provide healthcare for life for your career workers or buy back your stock? Give your CEO a 10 million dollar bonus? If the government can afford trillions and trillions of dollars in foreign wars certainly it can afford to take care of its public servants? (I'm not talking about politicians)



Im not really sure what were arguing about

Im saying many people who work in govt make more than their private sector counterparts, especially when adjusted for risk, but some dont, especially higher level people in elite fields

I dont blame individuals for taking a good deal that is available to them

But I also think people should admit when they have a good deal

If working in govt was not a good deal, I think you would see there being difficulties in filling govt positions, which seems pretty rare

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896425
01/10/19 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
A lot of people have degrees and dont get paid much

Go to any university town and observe all of the poor adjuncts with PHDs

Only in govt do you get automatic raises for things like this


You don't get an automatic raise for having an advanced degree. You may come in at a higher pay level if you have an advanced degree but that is negotiated. Isn't that true in the private sector as well? People with advanced degrees are in a better position to negotiate a higher wage. People with advanced degrees make more money no matter in what sector.

Is the problem that the government provides a pension and healthcare or is it that the private sector doesn't? I can't see every small business being able to afford this but many large companies certainly could. Provide healthcare for life for your career workers or buy back your stock? Give your CEO a 10 million dollar bonus? If the government can afford trillions and trillions of dollars in foreign wars certainly it can afford to take care of its public servants? (I'm not talking about politicians)



Im not really sure what were arguing about

Im saying many people who work in govt make more than their private sector counterparts, especially when adjusted for risk, but some dont, especially higher level people in elite fields

I dont blame individuals for taking a good deal that is available to them

But I also think people should admit when they have a good deal

If working in govt was not a good deal, I think you would see there being difficulties in filling govt positions, which seems pretty rare


I agree with you for the most part. I don't see a lot of government workers claiming they have a bad deal. They know what they signed up for. The reason I stepped into the conversation was to provide some insight against the knee jerk right wing standard that government employees are lazy and waste of taxpayer money.

In a down economy there usually isn't a hard time filling government positions. In this economy there is actually has been difficulty for the federal government to find well qualified applicants. That is because again, they can make more money in the private sector.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: the janitor] #2896430
01/10/19 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: the janitor
The VA is a very difficult agency to deal with. The standards of care vary a lot depending upon location and in general I think it is both dramatically underfunded/understaffed and undermanaged. The scandals that keep emerging are a shameful catalog of our treatment of Vets when the cameras aren't on.


I neglected the "how to fix it" portion of the event:

1. Require Congress to adequately fund the VA very shortly after we enter into new military engagements. RIght now it seems like we are relatively nimble at sending troops wherever needed - which is good - but horrible at doing the downstream math to figure out how many new patients the VA will need to care for and with what types of injuries.

2. Leadership and administrative accountability (ie firing some people). There need to be serious consequences for the crap some of these folks get away with. There are great people at the VA, but there are also a bunch of lemons in management roles that need to be expunged.

3. Increase the voucher system for private care. Depending upon location, the services Vets may need might not be available - or at least not any time soon. This is BS and amounts to severely rationed or non-existent care

4. Fcuking fund hard core research on TBIs. The amount we don't know in this realm is huge and the amount of Vets suffering from the serious consequences are large.

5. Destigmatize seeking help for PTSD - which needs to start in the military.

6. Crack some fcuking skulls when it comes to MST in the military and adequately fund treatment for this at the VA.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: sizzld1] #2896431
01/10/19 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: sizzld1
Ok. Show us a link to where starting salaries for school teachers are $80k in your municipality. Good luck.


Just hit the link I shared and looked at my children's district. The site doesn't give if the person is full time, an aid or how many years served.

The lowest person listed is $30.00 ???
The Mid point of all (over 200) employees listed is $91,756.00
The High that isn't a Principal or administrator is $113,000
Lower school Principals are $125,000
The BA: $152,000
High School Principal: $157,000
Superintendent: $157,500


Sizz, I believe you're in NJ too. Do the same for your district. You can search by district on the right. Then you can sort by salary.

Again, I'm not complaining that they make this much..........just saying, don't complain that they're not making enough. They sure as hell have better benefits than I or most of you do, have summers and breaks off too.

Edit. Just noticed if you click a teachers name you can get all the particulars on that individual to boot.


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Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896433
01/10/19 06:39 PM
01/10/19 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Something something Autoprax frames


Huh?

Your view of government and government workers is polluted by the the fact that your mother was one of the good ones and are projecting her to the rest of the government.


My entire existence is a failed gotcha
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896434
01/10/19 06:41 PM
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Hows this one. Girl's gym teacher in my kids district: $113,260 One of the most highly paid people in the entire district.


Salary
$113,260


Experience District
29


Experience New Jersey
30

Primary Job
Health & Physical Education

Experience Total
30

FTE
1.00

Subcategory
General ed

Certificate
Standard certificate

Highly Qualified
Doesn't need to be highly qualified

Teaching Route
Traditional


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896435
01/10/19 06:43 PM
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Is that starting salary?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: manbearpig] #2896437
01/10/19 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Is that starting salary?


See prior post for all the stats for my district.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: ifallalot] #2896438
01/10/19 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Something something Autoprax frames


Huh?

Your view of government and government workers is polluted by the the fact that your mother was one of the good ones and are projecting her to the rest of the government.

Or maybe he has more experience with individuals in government jobs than you because of that, but keep framing things to be convenient for your views/bias shrug

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: manbearpig] #2896439
01/10/19 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sharkbiscuit


Californian government workers get priced out of neighborhood in California by people who picked more lucrative career track:

WAAAAAH. WAAAAAH. SUMBUDDY CALL WAMBALAMPS.

SAKWAMENTO TAKSEZ ME

CALL WAMBALAMPS!!11111!!!!!!!




dancing

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896440
01/10/19 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: sizzld1
Ok. Show us a link to where starting salaries for school teachers are $80k in your municipality. Good luck.


Just hit the link I shared and looked at my children's district. The site doesn't give if the person is full time, an aid or how many years served.

The lowest person listed is $30.00 ???
The Mid point of all (over 200) employees listed is $91,756.00
The High that isn't a Principal or administrator is $113,000
Lower school Principals are $125,000
The BA: $152,000
High School Principal: $157,000
Superintendent: $157,500


Sizz, I believe you're in NJ too. Do the same for your district. You can search by district on the right. Then you can sort by salary.

Again, I'm not complaining that they make this much..........just saying, don't complain that they're not making enough. They sure as hell have better benefits than I or most of you do, have summers and breaks off too.

Edit. Just noticed if you click a teachers name you can get all the particulars on that individual to boot.


Link?

In CA, they tend to share compensation figures that include benefits.


Bock you
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: ifallalot] #2896444
01/10/19 06:55 PM
01/10/19 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Something something Autoprax frames


Huh?

Your view of government and government workers is polluted by the the fact that your mother was one of the good ones and are projecting her to the rest of the government.


That would be true if I said all government workers were great and there is no waste in the government. That's not what I'm saying. I'm providing evidence that the government is not all bad. Also my mother isn't the only government worker I know and I know a lot of people in the private sector too. I have perspective and experience not bias.

I'm trying to provide an accurate picture based on fact not one based on right wing dogma.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896445
01/10/19 06:58 PM
01/10/19 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Is that starting salary?


See prior post for all the stats for my district.

Your link is no good and rest is unclear.

Are those starting salaries or are they not? Its a simple question. From the looks of things they are not starting salaries and youre trying to compare apples to oranges.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GWS] #2896448
01/10/19 06:59 PM
01/10/19 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: GWS
Originally Posted By: Sharkbiscuit


Californian government workers get priced out of neighborhood in California by people who picked more lucrative career track:

WAAAAAH. WAAAAAH. SUMBUDDY CALL WAMBALAMPS.

SAKWAMENTO TAKSEZ ME

CALL WAMBALAMPS!!11111!!!!!!!




dancing


cheers

110% on point and relevant, and part of the government expense cycle no doubt. Been happening for ages in New York as well. You need your vest and shotgun to get from your squalor cell to squad car in Staten Island or the Bronx, and technically live in the city, or if you have a kid and want that child to not grow up with Mike Tyson or 50 Cent or the Wu Tang Clan, are providing special services to someone in one of the boroughs for a mailing address and living out in Rockland County or someplace halfway between Buffalo and Montreal.

Do you want to pay less in taxes, or take a property value hit by having affordable housing for public sector employees?

Unless you live in Bayleiwa Headolua or Spring-a-Lago New Jersey, both of which break just like Boxdoor, and the mailman is making seven figures.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896451
01/10/19 07:02 PM
01/10/19 07:02 PM
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I'm also trying to dispel old myths. Like government workers have such amazing retirement packages (not true anymore at least for fed employees), promotion isn't based on merit, they can't get fired, and on and on. Those are all the things right wing media tells you to create an enemy. They are trying to divert your attention from what the real cost drivers of our debt are.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: Sharkbiscuit] #2896453
01/10/19 07:04 PM
01/10/19 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sharkbiscuit
Originally Posted By: GWS
Originally Posted By: Sharkbiscuit


Californian government workers get priced out of neighborhood in California by people who picked more lucrative career track:

WAAAAAH. WAAAAAH. SUMBUDDY CALL WAMBALAMPS.

SAKWAMENTO TAKSEZ ME

CALL WAMBALAMPS!!11111!!!!!!!




dancing


cheers

110% on point and relevant, and part of the government expense cycle no doubt. Been happening for ages in New York as well. You need your vest and shotgun to get from your squalor cell to squad car in Staten Island or the Bronx, and technically live in the city, or if you have a kid and want that child to not grow up with Mike Tyson or 50 Cent or the Wu Tang Clan, are providing special services to someone in one of the boroughs for a mailing address and living out in Rockland County or someplace halfway between Buffalo and Montreal.

Do you want to pay less in taxes, or take a property value hit by having affordable housing for public sector employees?

Unless you live in Bayleiwa Headolua or Spring-a-Lago New Jersey, both of which break just like Boxdoor, and the mailman is making seven figures.


No mailman is making seven figures. Why spout that shvt?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896457
01/10/19 07:09 PM
01/10/19 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Quote:
Unless you live in Bayleiwa Headolua or Spring-a-Lago New Jersey, both of which break just like Boxdoor, and the mailman is making seven figures.


No mailman is making seven figures. Why spout that shvt?


Karl Malone made seven figures, so all mailmen make seven figures.

Also a cobblestone point in Orange County is comparable to a Hawaiian reefbreak with north exposure, and totally not a thin lipped fairy wave moving at like half the speed.

Plus Sea Girt is just as easy to surf, especially backside, as The Box.

Take deep breathes, and improve your stock game.

Last edited by Sharkbiscuit; 01/10/19 07:10 PM.
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896458
01/10/19 07:10 PM
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If Im hiring someone to take care of my kids, Im generally not looking to chisel them on pay

By contrast, it i was hiring someone to administer the line at the DMV, Im not sure why I should be paying that person more than the person who administers the line at the car wash

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896463
01/10/19 07:23 PM
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Sure. I think that is why there are pay scales in government. Someone like that would definitely be at the bottom. Their pay is probably pretty low. The fact that they then get decent healthcare and maybe a small pension (if they do it for 30 years) I don't think is evidence of a problem with government. What are our priorities as a society? If someone doesn't have the brains to be an engineer we don't think they should have their basic needs taken care of? The guy managing the line at the DMV in theory is showing up on time and doing his job well. Imagine a DMV without order? That is what some 3rd world countries are like, a free for all, and it is hell. Hell, orderly lines are the best thing about the 1st world.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896468
01/10/19 07:32 PM
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The money is coming from somewhere

Overpaying the DMV guy means there is less money available for other stuff

When govt claims they cant afford to do certain things, part of it is because they dont tax some people enough, but part of it is because they waste the money they have

Then theres the part about the DMV guy usually having some connection to a politician

I guess thats the way the world works so if DMV guy cultivated that connection and it pays off, whatever

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896471
01/10/19 07:37 PM
01/10/19 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Sure. I think that is why there are pay scales in government. Someone like that would definitely be at the bottom. Their pay is probably pretty low. The fact that they then get decent healthcare and maybe a small pension (if they do it for 30 years) I don't think is evidence of a problem with government. What are our priorities as a society? If someone doesn't have the brains to be an engineer we don't think they should have their basic needs taken care of? The guy managing the line at the DMV in theory is showing up on time and doing his job well. Imagine a DMV without order? That is what some 3rd world countries are like, a free for all, and it is hell. Hell, orderly lines are the best thing about the 1st world.


Ive learned through my extensive experience in a third world country that you can

Pay to go to the front of the line.

Pay someone to wait in line for you.

smokin


"That's their respect for me... I got leid," Rabbit Kekai

"That's all it takes--one moment." Sponge
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: ElOgro] #2896473
01/10/19 07:40 PM
01/10/19 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Sure. I think that is why there are pay scales in government. Someone like that would definitely be at the bottom. Their pay is probably pretty low. The fact that they then get decent healthcare and maybe a small pension (if they do it for 30 years) I don't think is evidence of a problem with government. What are our priorities as a society? If someone doesn't have the brains to be an engineer we don't think they should have their basic needs taken care of? The guy managing the line at the DMV in theory is showing up on time and doing his job well. Imagine a DMV without order? That is what some 3rd world countries are like, a free for all, and it is hell. Hell, orderly lines are the best thing about the 1st world.


Ive learned through my extensive experience in a third world country that you can

Pay to go to the front of the line.

Pay someone to wait in line for you.

smokin


Exactly cheers

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: heelnipstr] #2896474
01/10/19 07:41 PM
01/10/19 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Meanwhile a starting salary for a fireman in my town is over $80,000 plus incredible benefits. They work 24 on 48 off. School teachers have the same starting pay. Perhaps the only municipal workers in my town at the lower end of things would be entry level clerks and public works employees. I'm not complaining but cry me a freaking river.


Liar.
Starting teachers in NJ earn $50k a year.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/new-jersey/#by-seniority


He also lied about firemen. In NJ, their avg starting salary is less then $50k.
https://careertrend.com/what-is-the-starting-salary-for-a-firefighter-in-new-jersey-12592100.html

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896475
01/10/19 07:43 PM
01/10/19 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
The money is coming from somewhere

Overpaying the DMV guy means there is less money available for other stuff

When govt claims they cant afford to do certain things, part of it is because they dont tax some people enough, but part of it is because they waste the money they have

Then theres the part about the DMV guy usually having some connection to a politician

I guess thats the way the world works so if DMV guy cultivated that connection and it pays off, whatever


First I don't think the DMV guy is over paid. Does he have a second home? A yacht? In this day and age could he even afford to buy a home or have a family?

So you really believe that the guy that manages the line at the DMV cultivated a relationship with a politician to get that job? I don't even know what to say man.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: ElOgro] #2896488
01/10/19 08:26 PM
01/10/19 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Ive learned through my extensive experience in a third world country that you can

Pay to go to the front of the line.

Pay someone to wait in line for you.

smokin


Any pointers on not getting skipped once you're in the front of the line?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896489
01/10/19 08:27 PM
01/10/19 08:27 PM
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Look people the trash man in Belmar makes more than Bezos and L Jetty breaks just like Kirra de la Cruz.


"Can you ask if she'll blow me too?" - Autoprax
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896491
01/10/19 08:32 PM
01/10/19 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
The money is coming from somewhere

Overpaying the DMV guy means there is less money available for other stuff

When govt claims they cant afford to do certain things, part of it is because they dont tax some people enough, but part of it is because they waste the money they have

Then theres the part about the DMV guy usually having some connection to a politician

I guess thats the way the world works so if DMV guy cultivated that connection and it pays off, whatever


First I don't think the DMV guy is over paid. Does he have a second home? A yacht? In this day and age could he even afford to buy a home or have a family?

So you really believe that the guy that manages the line at the DMV cultivated a relationship with a politician to get that job? I don't even know what to say man.


Yeah, I do believe that

Not for DMV specifically, but Ive seen it happen with people I know in local politics

Like I said, theyre just playing the game, so whatever, but those are somebodys taxes that could be spent on other things besides hooking up a buddy

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896494
01/10/19 08:41 PM
01/10/19 08:41 PM
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I went to the DMV a few weeks ago. In and out in no time at all. Seemed pretty dialed in to me.


Bock you
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: StuAzole] #2896529
01/10/19 09:49 PM
01/10/19 09:49 PM
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your mom
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I went to the DMV a few weeks ago. In and out in no time at all. Seemed pretty dialed in to me.


There's a brand new fancy one that just opened in Esco.


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896533
01/10/19 09:53 PM
01/10/19 09:53 PM
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What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: FecalFace] #2896539
01/10/19 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: FecalFace
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
I went to the DMV a few weeks ago. In and out in no time at all. Seemed pretty dialed in to me.


There's a brand new fancy one that just opened in Esco.


It's all about the old one in Vista.


Bock you
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: StuAzole] #2896543
01/10/19 10:14 PM
01/10/19 10:14 PM
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your mom
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I'm all about the vintage O-side one.

They run commercials on the screens now to make up for the lack of funds.

Sad.


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: FecalFace] #2896547
01/10/19 10:20 PM
01/10/19 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


People care because govt employees are paid with tax dollars

While its nice in theory for someone to make a living wage, some of the shine comes off when that wage is taken from you by threat of force

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896550
01/10/19 10:23 PM
01/10/19 10:23 PM
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West of the Atlantic. East of...
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Here is a link for NJ Teachers. You can look up any teacher you want in any district you want: https://php.app.com/agent/educationstaff/search


Marven Atlantic Atlantic City Sovereign Avenue School Mathematics Grades 5 - 8 $101,307

I bet Marven has more than just a B.A. I bet most of the educators on that list have more than a B.A. If Marven has a wife and one child and student loans do you think he is living the high life? On that salary with student loans could he save 20% to buy a house in your town? Is he even middle class? You think this is a real waste of your tax dollars?



You seem to be missing my point. I'm not complaining about what people like this make. On the flip side I think people should realize how good people like this have it.

You should also read up on the problems with the New Jersey government pension system. It isn't pretty.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896554
01/10/19 10:35 PM
01/10/19 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


People care because govt employees are paid with tax dollars

While its nice in theory for someone to make a living wage, some of the shine comes off when that wage is taken from you by threat of force


Refusing to pay taxes is called mooching.

It's a small price to pay to live in the US.

Also, don't vote against your interest.


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: FecalFace] #2896560
01/10/19 10:43 PM
01/10/19 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


maybe it's because the health benefits can have such a large impact on your net worth over time, but people don't realize that until the sh*t hits the fan shrug

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2896562
01/10/19 10:47 PM
01/10/19 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
I think people should realize how good people like this have it.

And a lot of them are minorities and women! roflmao


The truth will be revealed in time
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896569
01/10/19 11:00 PM
01/10/19 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
I'm also trying to dispel old myths. Like government workers have such amazing retirement packages (not true anymore at least for fed employees), promotion isn't based on merit, they can't get fired, and on and on. Those are all the things right wing media tells you to create an enemy. They are trying to divert your attention from what the real cost drivers of our debt are.

https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article209303974.html
"CalPERS told Gov. Jerry Brown and legislators that they must include $6.3 billion in the 2018-19 state budget to cover state employee pensions, making it one of the budgets largest single items."
Sounds like at least in California, retirement funds are a sizable portion of the budget shrug


You forgot it was STOLEN?!
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: the janitor] #2896574
01/10/19 11:20 PM
01/10/19 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: the janitor
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


maybe it's because the health benefits can have such a large impact on your net worth over time, but people don't realize that until the sh*t hits the fan shrug


Great argument for Single Payer.


"The real enemy are the (gun) manufactures of your toys and the NRA. They play on your fear to steal your money." - ifallalot / 2014
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: FecalFace] #2896583
01/10/19 11:47 PM
01/10/19 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: FecalFace
Originally Posted By: the janitor
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


maybe it's because the health benefits can have such a large impact on your net worth over time, but people don't realize that until the sh*t hits the fan shrug


Great argument for Single Payer.


What if we fire 50% of the clerks and use the savings to get single payer?

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896589
01/11/19 12:12 AM
01/11/19 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
Originally Posted By: the janitor
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


maybe it's because the health benefits can have such a large impact on your net worth over time, but people don't realize that until the sh*t hits the fan shrug


Great argument for Single Payer.


What if we fire 50% of the clerks and use the savings to get single payer?
Were going to fire the three home/two yacht/one jet owners. Theyll have to cut back a bit. Well need to hire more clerks as the system is expanded. Sorry if youre a super rich healthcare management parasite. You will be negatively affected. Prescription drug makers are going to take a hit also.


The truth will be revealed in time
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896601
01/11/19 12:27 AM
01/11/19 12:27 AM
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How about:

Tax capital gains as ordinary income

Fire 20% of clerks in every govt agency

End all foreign wars

Topless beaches

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: FecalFace] #2896630
01/11/19 01:38 AM
01/11/19 01:38 AM
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Posts: 9,773
north of the bridge
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the janitor Offline
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north of the bridge
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
Originally Posted By: the janitor
Originally Posted By: FecalFace
What I don't get tho is all the whining and jealousy about government employees getting better bennies than the private sector, instead of whining at the private sector for underpaying and not providing better benefits.


maybe it's because the health benefits can have such a large impact on your net worth over time, but people don't realize that until the sh*t hits the fan shrug


Great argument for Single Payer.


Did you not read my earlier posts about the VA?

The current system is a lottery of sorts, but I'm not convinced the single payer route here would be an improvement.

Well OK, Billy is making some sense with the topless beaches, but still.

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2896712
01/11/19 06:45 AM
01/11/19 06:45 AM
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hammies Offline
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In the state of California teacher salaries are by law public information. Just google XXX school district salary schedule, the info is easy to find.

For example, I checked Ventura Unified. A beginning teacher on an emergency credential (BS/BA only) starts at $46,841. The schedule tops out at $93,427. That's after 27 years with a Master's degree. That person will *never* get a raise after 27 years. According to Cal STRS, that teacher with a MS degree will get a pension of $7474/month (no insurance benefits included) if they work 40 years and retire at age 65. Median home prices in Ventura are $601K; if you can save $120K for a down payment you still need an annual salary of about $146K to buy a median priced home. We can therefore conclude that the highest paid teacher in Ventura does not come close to being able to buy a median priced home there.

Teachers benefits packages vary by district but usually include dental and some kind of PPO, usually at 80/20 or 90/10. The amounts teachers pay for these benefits vary; a friend who works in SB pays almost $600/month for her 80/20 PPO benefits package ($3K deductible). Total comp web sites include districts' costs of benefits; my friend makes $91K but her total comp is listed at $107K on transparentcalifornia.com. Some districts have better benefits, though. BTW like many teachers she works about 60 hours/week during the school year.

Basically teaching is a really hard job, and nobody does it for the money.


"The world needs fewer arrogant pricks."
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: hammies] #2896758
01/11/19 02:44 PM
01/11/19 02:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 55,901
HB, CA
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ifallalot Offline
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HB, CA


My entire existence is a failed gotcha
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: BillyOcean] #2896813
01/11/19 05:42 PM
01/11/19 05:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 13,667
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StuAzole Offline
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Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
How about:

Tax capital gains as ordinary income

Fire 20% of clerks in every govt agency

End all foreign wars

Topless beaches


You should go back to ignoring politics again.


Bock you
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2896919
01/11/19 10:48 PM
01/11/19 10:48 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,471
Santucky, Ca
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Phi1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: trevorbc
I'm also trying to dispel old myths. Like government workers have such amazing retirement packages (not true anymore at least for fed employees), promotion isn't based on merit, they can't get fired, and on and on. Those are all the things right wing media tells you to create an enemy. They are trying to divert your attention from what the real cost drivers of our debt are.


Yep, there's a difference in Fed vs local government. I think most of the ridiculous retirement scams were going on at the state level.

For feds, their advancement is based on step increases, there are also COLA (cost of living) increases, but don't think they're guaranteed.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversigh...rade-increases/

Quote:

Within-grade step increases are based on an acceptable level of performance and longevity (waiting periods of 1 year at steps 1-3, 2 years at steps 4-6, and 3 years at steps 7-9). It normally takes 18 years to advance from step 1 to step 10 within a single GS grade if an employee remains in that single grade.


Note, pay varies by one's location as well:
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2018/general-schedule/

Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: trevorbc] #2897068
01/12/19 04:10 AM
01/12/19 04:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,129
MAINEAGEBITCHES!
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Underdog Offline
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MAINEAGEBITCHES!
Trevor,
yourmomworkedforastate...theydontgettaxedfor socialsecurity andshechoseher fate.
mtspacebarisfuctandsospeed read.
BTW In my experience thestatepensionsaremuchbetterthan fed.


Politicians are like diapers, you must frequently change them... and usually for the same reason!
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2897071
01/12/19 04:20 AM
01/12/19 04:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 28,532
Vagina Point
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Autoprax Online content
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Yay for state pensions!

And thank you taxpayers of california@


A threat response is a potent trigger for motivated reasoning.

"People who are right a lot listen a lot, and they change their mind a lot. . . . . They wake up and reanalyze things and change their mind. If you don't change your mind frequently, you're going to be wrong a lot."
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: afoaf] #2897131
01/12/19 12:19 PM
01/12/19 12:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 18,709
West of the Atlantic. East of...
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West of the Atlantic. East of...


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Fixing Government Services [Re: GromsDad] #2897138
01/12/19 12:59 PM
01/12/19 12:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 55,901
HB, CA
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roflmao

Its natural and beautiful!


My entire existence is a failed gotcha
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