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Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard #2894922
01/07/19 01:37 PM
01/07/19 01:37 PM
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Q: Secret aspiration?
A: Buy Pezman's mag and turn it into a piece of crap.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2894926
01/07/19 02:13 PM
01/07/19 02:13 PM
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I'm pretty sure that's Josh Miller here in Duuuuuuval on the repair; Schroff had another post with a phone screenshot saying this was from Florida.

I'm surprised these things do so well here in FL; Corevac, Black Dart, C3, and local EPS price points competitive imho. Almost zero idea how GSI polys sell.

Last edited by Sharkbiscuit; 01/07/19 02:13 PM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2894933
01/07/19 02:41 PM
01/07/19 02:41 PM
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The GSI in the pic is EPS.


Q: Secret aspiration?
A: Buy Pezman's mag and turn it into a piece of crap.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2894940
01/07/19 02:52 PM
01/07/19 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: casa_mugrienta
The GSI in the pic is EPS.


Right, at least that one has *something* going for it, on paper in theory, as a Fiberflex build which isn't available locally. There is so much cheap poly to be had these days that when I see GSI poly on the racks I just wonder.


"Can you ask if she'll blow me too?" - Autoprax
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2894952
01/07/19 03:06 PM
01/07/19 03:06 PM
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So what's the problem, boxes leaked?

Does a performance surfboard ever last more than 5 years?


My entire existence is a failed gotcha
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2894961
01/07/19 03:18 PM
01/07/19 03:18 PM
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The problem is wood glue.


Q: Secret aspiration?
A: Buy Pezman's mag and turn it into a piece of crap.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: ifallalot] #2894968
01/07/19 03:40 PM
01/07/19 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: ifallalot
So what's the problem, boxes leaked?


looks like they only used glue on the install. I believe you can use a little glue to set the boxes and then backfill the boxes with resin, not the normal install method but can be done.
I do a lot of ding repair and the Asian stuff sucks, not all of it though, I've seen good quality from there, HS included

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895027
01/07/19 05:48 PM
01/07/19 05:48 PM
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After looking at Schroff's bio on his website it irks me that he's railing on Asian imported surfboards when he's spent decades working for surf clothing corporations that made all their products in Asia. Now he's cruising around in his van to get away from the crowds he helped create with the image marketing of surfing and building replica surfboard models of McCoys and MR's. Wonder if he's sending them royalties for that?
Only choosing to fight the good fight when it comes to surfboards is BS in my eyes.
Easy target for marketing though.


Caution: excessive Kool Aid consumption may lead to a bitter aftertaste!
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895054
01/07/19 06:28 PM
01/07/19 06:28 PM
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Did the boxes just fall out? Don't see any damage around the boxes.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895056
01/07/19 06:32 PM
01/07/19 06:32 PM
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Hey look! Schroff got his Instagram back. monkey

Oops.........on second glance, no he didn't. He had to spell his name differently. roflmao


Last edited by jkb; 01/07/19 07:05 PM.

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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895069
01/07/19 06:50 PM
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Nail on the head




Could also be applied to so many other things...recycling...global warming aware Amazon Prime users...etc.


Q: Secret aspiration?
A: Buy Pezman's mag and turn it into a piece of crap.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: mundus] #2895135
01/07/19 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: mundus
Did the boxes just fall out? Don't see any damage around the boxes.


I repaired a local pro's untitled HS that was sold to a grom, and resold to another grom with this problem. The first time I replaced the side box and repaired the other box due to cracks, grom did not want to pay for replacing second box, I warned him. The second grom that got it i had to replace the other box, rear fin was fine for now. So even though it was glued they did not pop out, due to the fiberglass capping it, just cracked all around the box and wobbling around taking in buckets of water. It probably still has water in it even though it drained for days. It's amazing how much water those things soak up from tiny holes. I should post pictures of the quality issues I come across, and not just the Asian stuff.

I hated that board laugh

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895158
01/07/19 09:22 PM
01/07/19 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: casa_mugrienta
Nail on the head


Could also be applied to so many other things...recycling...global warming aware Amazon Prime users...etc.

Also shows the sphere of demand for the two products pictured. Schroff wasn't pointing out the supply and demand chain back when he was working for the corporations pumping out their products from Asia to the rest of the world.
In his case I just don't like his tactics when knowing his past work choices didn't gel with the gospel he's now preaching.
My most recent board is a hand shaped 7'4" old school single, triple stringer that was completely built in the factory 2 mins from my house. They were cleaning out stuff and found the dust covered blank with a thick crust on it as it had been in there so long and forgotten. Underneath the crust was a triple stringer blank. Apparently it was a bitch to shape since the blank had gone so hard. Millsy (the shaper) turned it into a beautiful old school board and Jobbo (hey it's and Aussie thing with the nicknames) glassed it with Volan glass. I bought it from their shop which is 8 mins from my house. Picked it up in what used to be the shop van which I have now owned for years. Re-cycle-re-use!
So I like hand shapes, locally made just like the next guy!


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895180
01/07/19 10:02 PM
01/07/19 10:02 PM
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It's obviously been pointed out a number of times, even been discussed and explained in great depth here by the Eco surf guys etc.

Carbon footprint of shipping/travel is only one factor and often only a small factor in carbon footprint.

Really only comes into play when comparing apples with apples and not apples with oranges.


Last edited by indodreams; 01/07/19 10:03 PM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895183
01/07/19 10:05 PM
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Had a Chilli EPS/Epoxy Future flex with futures...no issues with the boxes, but boy did that board yellow and it's only the second EPS/Epoxy board I've snapped.

BTW. Pretty funny that dude despite all the trolling he has done at Kelly and FW and now HS etc
only has 919 followers on Instagram..

Last edited by indodreams; 01/07/19 10:12 PM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Caelho] #2895378
01/08/19 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Caelho
...So even though it was glued they did not pop out, due to the fiberglass capping it, just cracked all around the box and wobbling around taking in buckets of water. It probably still has water in it even though it drained for days. It's amazing how much water those things soak up from tiny holes. I should post pictures of the quality issues I come across, and not just the Asian stuff.

I hated that board laugh



Must be block cut EPS. As Parmenter says in part 4 absorbent EPS is disastrous because it will suck water from pinholes, so should be avoided unless its a sandwich build. I assume he must be talking about block cut EPS. Moulded fused bead EPS can be made very watertight and that is suitable for a non sandwich build. The reason why sandwich builds can get away with block cut EPS is because the divinycell or whatever that wraps it stops the water and isn't so likely to get punctured, plus sandwich builds normally have a thick layer of paint which would fill pinholes in the seam area.

The US blank manufactures seem to offer block cut blanks as well as moulded (fused) blanks, so beware, not just the stuff coming out of Asia. Make sure there is a fused blank inside your non sandwich lam .

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895380
01/08/19 06:15 AM
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whats inside a FW Mr J?


All the sailors with their seasick mamas hear the sirens on the shore.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Retropete] #2895382
01/08/19 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: Retropete
After looking at Schroff's bio on his website it irks me that he's railing on Asian imported surfboards when he's spent decades working for surf clothing corporations that made all their products in Asia. Now he's cruising around in his van to get away from the crowds he helped create with the image marketing of surfing and building replica surfboard models of McCoys and MR's. Wonder if he's sending them royalties for that?
Only choosing to fight the good fight when it comes to surfboards is BS in my eyes.
Easy target for marketing though.


roflmao

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: freeride76] #2895385
01/08/19 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: freeride76
whats inside a FW Mr J?


I don't know about modern ones Freeride. Early ones were vented, so must have been block cut. There is nothing to be gained from venting fused bead, but absence of vents does not necessarily mean fused bead.

A couple of the early prototypes I borrowed were near bullet proof sandwich, which as mentioned alleviates that problem. I had a quick look at the FW website and didn't notice any claims about fused. They don't say if their Helium/LFT builds are a full sandwich i.e. glass, HD skin, glass. However, the HD skin would give it puncture resistance sandwich qualities. The balsa in the rails look a vulnerability to me.

Anyone got a modern FW and dinged the rail or damaged a box? and did it suck water?

Libtech say they use fused. Modern surftechs are fused and Diverse's gold coast composite builds use fused bead.

XTR is of course XPS so won't have any suckage problems either.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: xmesa] #2895386
01/08/19 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: xmesa
Originally Posted By: Retropete
After looking at Schroff's bio on his website it irks me that he's railing on Asian imported surfboards when he's spent decades working for surf clothing corporations that made all their products in Asia. Now he's cruising around in his van to get away from the crowds he helped create with the image marketing of surfing and building replica surfboard models of McCoys and MR's. Wonder if he's sending them royalties for that?
Only choosing to fight the good fight when it comes to surfboards is BS in my eyes.
Easy target for marketing though.


roflmao

sleeping


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895388
01/08/19 07:55 AM
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I've had about ten FW's and never had an issue with fins boxes(FSC or Futures) or dings that suck water.

I did snap one (FST) clean in half though and left it in an Indo village years ago, i was back there in May and kids were playing on it everyday in the lagoon sometimes for hours..

I checked it out and gave it a paddle, expecting it to be waterlogged and mushy and wet, but the strange thing was it wasn't, it didn't feel heavier and was still as buoyant as the day i snapped it maybe it had sucked water but it wasn't visible or obvious, not even mouldy????

The balsa rails though, different story they had sucked in water a few inches in and gone mushy and mouldy.

Even when it had been sitting around for a few hours it was hard to tell if it had sucked water, nothing obvious when you tried to squeeze the EPS where it was snapped..

I did read in swayback thread that EPS tends to suck water when it's a ding in a board (like a vacuum effect) but not so much when it's fully exposed?

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Mr J] #2895391
01/08/19 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: Caelho
...So even though it was glued they did not pop out, due to the fiberglass capping it, just cracked all around the box and wobbling around taking in buckets of water. It probably still has water in it even though it drained for days. It's amazing how much water those things soak up from tiny holes. I should post pictures of the quality issues I come across, and not just the Asian stuff.

I hated that board laugh



Must be block cut EPS. As Parmenter says in part 4 absorbent EPS is disastrous because it will suck water from pinholes, so should be avoided unless its a sandwich build. I assume he must be talking about block cut EPS. Moulded fused bead EPS can be made very watertight and that is suitable for a non sandwich build. The reason why sandwich builds can get away with block cut EPS is because the divinycell or whatever that wraps it stops the water and isn't so likely to get punctured, plus sandwich builds normally have a thick layer of paint which would fill pinholes in the seam area.

The US blank manufactures seem to offer block cut blanks as well as moulded (fused) blanks, so beware, not just the stuff coming out of Asia. Make sure there is a fused blank inside your non sandwich lam .


All EPS is "fused cell" - thats how they make it - fuse beads of polystyrene in a mold. The surfboard industry has just cottoned on to that term like the surf/snakeoil industry does. the block stuff is just moulded in a big block, not a surfboard blank. There are varying density's and quality of both surfboard specific molded eps and Block eps. The lower density or stuff that hasn't been molded under uniform temperature and pressure or uses larger beads can have larger voids between the cells and thats where the water gets sucked into.

The best EPS i have used came from a block of VH grade eps. better than the brand name and imported blanks of similar densities i have used.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Retropete] #2895403
01/08/19 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Retropete
Originally Posted By: xmesa
Originally Posted By: Retropete
After looking at Schroff's bio on his website it irks me that he's railing on Asian imported surfboards when he's spent decades working for surf clothing corporations that made all their products in Asia. Now he's cruising around in his van to get away from the crowds he helped create with the image marketing of surfing and building replica surfboard models of McCoys and MR's. Wonder if he's sending them royalties for that?
Only choosing to fight the good fight when it comes to surfboards is BS in my eyes.
Easy target for marketing though.


roflmao

sleeping


I don't think anyone is interested in championing for hand shaped t shirts.


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2895404
01/08/19 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: casa_mugrienta
Nail on the head

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overflow:hidden; padding:8px 0 7px; text-align:center; text-overflow:ellipsis; white-space:nowrap;"><a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq05PoCHdNr/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_medium=loading" style=" color:#c9c8cd; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; line-height:17px; text-decoration:none;" target="_blank">A post shared by Schroff Surfboards (@scrhroffsurfboards)</a> on <time style=" font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px;" datetime="2018-12-01T01:35:31+00:00">Nov 30, 2018 at 5:35pm PST</time></p></div></blockquote>
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Could also be applied to so many other things...recycling...global warming aware Amazon Prime users...etc.


This eco board marketing kills me. I tried some entropy super sap resin and it outgasses like a muthafvcka. Nearly passed out just using it for finboxes (too ugly for full lams). RR and Greenroom barely give off any vocs.
shrug


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: ghostshaper] #2895556
01/08/19 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: ghostshaper
Originally Posted By: Retropete
Originally Posted By: xmesa
Originally Posted By: Retropete
After looking at Schroff's bio on his website it irks me that he's railing on Asian imported surfboards when he's spent decades working for surf clothing corporations that made all their products in Asia. Now he's cruising around in his van to get away from the crowds he helped create with the image marketing of surfing and building replica surfboard models of McCoys and MR's. Wonder if he's sending them royalties for that?
Only choosing to fight the good fight when it comes to surfboards is BS in my eyes.
Easy target for marketing though.


roflmao

sleeping


I don't think anyone is interested in championing for hand shaped t shirts.

That's how they got away with whoring out surfing to the world.
wink
If there were no clothing companies like Billabong, Quiksilver, Rip curl that cashed up pro surfing and sold the imagery of surfing worldwide since the 70's what would surfing be like now?
Chances are there wouldn't be the global demand for surfboards that have spawned Asian surfboard production. Surfboard production could still be primarily cottage industry because the numbers of people surfing wouldn't be that great.



Caution: excessive Kool Aid consumption may lead to a bitter aftertaste!
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Retropete] #2895756
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Originally Posted By: Retropete

That's how they got away with whoring out surfing to the world.
wink
If there were no clothing companies like Billabong, Quiksilver, Rip curl that cashed up pro surfing and sold the imagery of surfing worldwide since the 70's what would surfing be like now?
Chances are there wouldn't be the global demand for surfboards that have spawned Asian surfboard production. Surfboard production could still be primarily cottage industry because the numbers of people surfing wouldn't be that great.



ah, I get your point. cheers

and I'll explicitly add that contest "pro" surfing was created to sell said clothing (even though you said it above).


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: toddo] #2895761
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Originally Posted By: toddo

All EPS is "fused cell" - thats how they make it - fuse beads of polystyrene in a mold. The surfboard industry has just cottoned on to that term like the surf/snakeoil industry does. the block stuff is just moulded in a big block, not a surfboard blank. There are varying density's and quality of both surfboard specific molded eps and Block eps. The lower density or stuff that hasn't been molded under uniform temperature and pressure or uses larger beads can have larger voids between the cells and thats where the water gets sucked into.

The best EPS i have used came from a block of VH grade eps. better than the brand name and imported blanks of similar densities i have used.


thanks for clearing that up, I did know that the beads were sealed, it is the gap between the between the beads is the problem. However I was basing my simple 2 category division based on how some of the blank companies present their marketing blurb.

https://usblanks.com/blank-options/foamselection/

We do know however that some EPS is very good at resisting absorption and some EPS is awful. From what you are saying there would be all manner of in between.

Perhaps we should just say the "good stuff" and the "bad stuff"!

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: indodreams] #2895765
01/09/19 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: indodreams
I've had about ten FW's and never had an issue with fins boxes(FSC or Futures) or dings that suck water.

I did snap one (FST) clean in half though and left it in an Indo village years ago, i was back there in May and kids were playing on it everyday in the lagoon sometimes for hours..

I checked it out and gave it a paddle, expecting it to be waterlogged and mushy and wet, but the strange thing was it wasn't, it didn't feel heavier and was still as buoyant as the day i snapped it maybe it had sucked water but it wasn't visible or obvious, not even mouldy????

The balsa rails though, different story they had sucked in water a few inches in and gone mushy and mouldy.

Even when it had been sitting around for a few hours it was hard to tell if it had sucked water, nothing obvious when you tried to squeeze the EPS where it was snapped..

I did read in swayback thread that EPS tends to suck water when it's a ding in a board (like a vacuum effect) but not so much when it's fully exposed?


It seems that due to the strength/sealed nature of the FW build that what sort of EPS is inside it is not a big issue.

Normal wood stringers in conventional PU blanks can absorb water, but usually a single ding on say the nose is not a big issue if repaired within a reasonable time. However unusual circumstances such as a ding in the nose on the stringer and a corresponding one in the tail can suck in more water.

yes, EPS when glassed with punctures is far worse than exposed EPS. Effectively it turns the surfboard into a pump. Compress into bottom turn and expel air out of pinholes/dings. Unweight and suck water in!

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: ghostshaper] #2895769
01/09/19 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: ghostshaper


This eco board marketing kills me. I tried some entropy super sap resin and it outgasses like a muthafvcka. Nearly passed out just using it for finboxes (too ugly for full lams). RR and Greenroom barely give off any vocs.
shrug


better for environment, worse for human! This idea of less VOCs from epoxy is a bit of a moot point to a glasser who has become sensetised and breaks out in a blistering rash from the slightest exposure.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Mr J] #2895775
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Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: ghostshaper


This eco board marketing kills me. I tried some entropy super sap resin and it outgasses like a muthafvcka. Nearly passed out just using it for finboxes (too ugly for full lams). RR and Greenroom barely give off any vocs.
shrug


better for environment, worse for human! This idea of less VOCs from epoxy is a bit of a moot point to a glasser who has become sensetised and breaks out in a blistering rash from the slightest exposure.


I'm not sensitized, but I read it was from glassers using acetone to clean up, just like they do w/ PE. I don't use acetone. I just use Gojo or any other pumice hand cleaner. The claim is that acetone is the solvent that carries the epoxy into your body and causes someone to become sensitized.

I don't like the VOCs from shaping EPS, though. Styrene is not something I want to breathe in. I wear a full mask respirator when shaping.

From wiki:
Health effects
Styrene is regarded as a "known carcinogen", especially in case of eye contact, but also in case of skin contact, of ingestion and of inhalation, according to several sources.[19][26][27][28] Styrene is largely metabolized into styrene oxide in humans, resulting from oxidation by cytochrome P450. Styrene oxide is considered toxic, mutagenic, and possibly carcinogenic. Styrene oxide is subsequently hydrolyzed in vivo to styrene glycol by the enzyme epoxide hydrolase.[29] The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has described styrene to be "a suspected toxin to the gastrointestinal tract, kidney, and respiratory system, among others".


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: ghostshaper] #2895796
01/09/19 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: ghostshaper


I'm not sensitized, but I read it was from glassers using acetone to clean up, just like they do w/ PE. I don't use acetone. I just use Gojo or any other pumice hand cleaner. The claim is that acetone is the solvent that carries the epoxy into your body and causes someone to become sensitized.

...


I was sensetised (symptoms were blistering rash from vapour alone). I never used acetone. Then I became de-sensetised - stopped for 6 months and restarted with a different epoxy, but I am probably very very vulnerable to re-sensetisation now and I broke out into a similar rash more recently from sanding the shine off a skateboard deck to put the griptape on.

Josh Dowling former FW tech expert and composite builder under his own name now sensetised and works in an epoxy free workshop. As a result of his epoxy sensetisation he can't touch polyurethane finish either.

Caramel Sea who posts here is sensetised.

You are doing the right thing, but don't take it for granted, some get sensetised after years of trouble free exposure.


There are anecdotal stories from boatbuilders who got cancer and blamed their polyester/styrene/acetone exposure, but not solid stats apparently. Its definitively bad, but as one of the builders on a recent podcasts said (I think part 4 of parmenter), the glassers of poly that he knows are still alive and kicking.


Last edited by Mr J; 01/09/19 02:41 AM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2896081
01/09/19 08:47 PM
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In many ways, I am all about good pricing, but tend to gravitate toward higher end products after doing the research.

That said, even though I don't surf that much (or that hard) I have no issues spending $700 - $800 on a quality board made in the U.S... and I don't see that changing, ever, unless I invest that amount in a board that doesn't last like I think it should.


"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm"
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2896282
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Originally Posted By: casa_mugrienta
The GSI in the pic is EPS.


Posted a few days ago on the surtech Au Nz feed.



Link from instagram bio

https://l.instagram.com/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shop-eat-surf.com%2F2019%2F01%2Fhaydenshapes-announces-new-global-distribution-partnership%2F&e=ATOiYjRyelEbHjyMTbvY_Dma09hsClMXwntoX34pSmIpezw_SSdP8b0a7lj4AIoc94Vlr4NVYiDaAsID

https://www.shop-eat-surf.com/2019/01/haydenshapes-announces-new-global-distribution-partnership/

key points:
1. HS to part company with GSI - amicably they say.
2. HS to team up with surf tech
3. Stock shapes to be built by Cobra
4. Haydenshapes Australia to build custom shapes

So maybe we will see some HS quality to come out of Asia.

Colan Australia manufacturer of composite fibres has liked the instagram post.

I would think that between the two of them surf tech and cobra must have more high end composite surfboard building experience and expertise than any other outfit in the world, so maybe a chance for Australian domestic builders to learn something about composite building from them.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Mr J] #2896290
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lifestyle corporation,GSI spin right round, ransom, surfboard sales light the world, much water, dream big sleep little, secret hippy stank, go soft young man, snake still make egg but been infertile like globally, more lightening bottle or bag, coxswain at bilge and helm, R. said it, he wait, boat still float to nirvana

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2897112
01/12/19 09:37 AM
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I was given a Firewire in LFT "tech" with a very slight crease from a mate of my brother.

It's got a couple of dings that I just taped over because I couldn't be bothered. These dings still leak just like any other EPS core boards I've had. It certainly ain't impervious to water.

Also, LFT is probably the furthest thing from a durable build IMO.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Hopeless] #2897147
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They use EPS not XPS

LFT is their lowest cost construction. Cheap black paper down center to give it a similar look to the competition who actually use carbon. That and other stuff also make room in the margin to pay KS for use of his name. Previous FW feels far from being as trendy as they once were. More flexy even more breaky but they're killing many birds with one stone.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Hopeless] #2897388
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Originally Posted By: Hopeless
I was given a Firewire in LFT "tech" with a very slight crease from a mate of my brother.

It's got a couple of dings that I just taped over because I couldn't be bothered. These dings still leak just like any other EPS core boards I've had. It certainly ain't impervious to water.

Also, LFT is probably the furthest thing from a durable build IMO.


So does that mean that you put a hole through the outer glass and punctured the high density foam skin all the way through to the EPS? Bad water suckage would mean a noticeable increase in weight. Also evidence of absorption would be if left in a warm place water will be bubbling and trickling out of the ding. Or did you ding the rail area?

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2897755
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Hi Mr J, there's a hole in the rail. It sucks and bubbles water just like all other EPS boards I've had over the years.

In a couple of other places the deck skin (which looks like PVC) is starting to separate from the foam beneath it - quite evident near the edges.

Also, the glass is EXTREMELY soft on the bottom. Doing the usual pushing the heel of your thumb into the board on the bottom - it almost completely gives way. Much softer than any other board I've tried

Last edited by Hopeless; 01/14/19 10:14 AM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Hopeless] #2898413
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thanks for the description Hopeless. EPS and water suckage can be a real problem in a variety of builds. Sounds like there is no hull HD skin if it gives in to the thumb press test so easily. Is it an ex team board, or a normal retail offering?

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2898415
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It's a normal retail board as far as I know. The skin is only on the deck and stops just shy of the rail as shown on the "technology" page for LFT here. It's on the interface between the edge of the deck skin and the rail - an obvious weak spot.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Hopeless] #2899011
01/16/19 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Hopeless
It's a normal retail board as far as I know. The skin is only on the deck and stops just shy of the rail as shown on the "technology" page for LFT here. It's on the interface between the edge of the deck skin and the rail - an obvious weak spot.


ah yes, no hull skin on LFT! For some reason quick search of firewire technology sent me https://firewiresurfboards.com/technology/helium and here https://firewiresurfboards.com/technology/linear-flex-technology which gives precious little detail, whereas the page you linked spells it out.

LFT has a 1.5 lb core which should leave enough in the weight budget for a strong epoxy composite lam - surftech's TLPC got a bullet proof build with a 1.5 lb core.

LFT says just "top sandwich cloth" whereas Helium and Timbertek specify "top and bottom deck sandwich cloth". So I take it that LFT deck is not a true sandwich, whereas Helium and Timbertek are.


On paper Helium looks a lot better - true sandwich with a very light density core of 0.8 which should leave plenty in the weight budget for a very strong epoxy composite shell. Balsa in the rails looks a vulnerability though - all pawlonia wood would be better.

Last edited by Mr J; 01/16/19 08:20 AM. Reason: changed my mind about the the LFT 1.5 core
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899018
01/16/19 08:55 AM
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For reference, what is the foam density of styrofoam cups? What about coolers of yesteryear?

Serious question.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899024
01/16/19 09:17 AM
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IMHO in regard to FW as a guide in order

Feel as close as possible to PU/PE

LFT
Hellium
FST
Timbertek


In regard to durability

LFT
(then huge huge gap)
Hellium
Timbertek
FST

LFT is more that build for guys that would normally ride PU/PE personally i don't see the point the durability is not that different to a PU/PE board but your risk of a ding that sucks water is there, might as well just ride PU/PE.

All the other builds give much more durability, I've never had any issues with dings sucking water with FST, Timbertek, Hellium because the durability is such that to get an open ding you would need to smash it onto something very very hard even on rock jumps where I've banged my FST boards on rocks I've had trouble finding a scratch.

Only time I've had an open ding/crack has been with airline travel so I've quickly sealed it before surfing.

With PU/PE in the water you get a lot of dings and shatters from your body actually hitting your board, you foot, knee, head....Id say it could also happen with LFT but never happened to me with FST or Timbertech or even Helium.

Apart from airline travel second place i use to get my boards beaten up was in my car or rock jumps, both you can jump in the water with open dings/cracks without knowing, i don't get these dings anymore.

The EPS sucking water things at first was a concern or worry to me, but now its not even something i worry about, its just so rare its not worth thinking about.

LFT yeah different ball game though...

Last edited by indodreams; 01/16/19 09:22 AM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899031
01/16/19 09:59 AM
01/16/19 09:59 AM
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LFT feels nothing like pu/pe to ride.


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899048
01/16/19 11:02 AM
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I agree. It feels like EPS (funny that).

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899618
01/17/19 05:16 AM
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I really hope at some stage someone does this.

Id really love to see a independent test done by a surf mag or something where they get exactly the same shapes done in different PU/PE foam density and glass schedule and then the same in half a dozen EPS Epoxy constructions, have all the boards painted (over the glass), same fins same deck grip wax everything and the get half a dozen surfers, say two pros, two decent surfers, and two very average surfers. (say two PU/PE boards and six EPS/Epoxy boards)

Do it somewhere like Mentawais and after say three waves they paddle back to the boat and get asked how the board went and what board they thought the construction was.

It would be super interesting.

Id be putting my money on it that most could pick the EPS/Epoxy composite constructions, but not some of the non composite type EPS/Epoxy boards.

IMHO a lot of it is (i think the word is) cognitive bias, a huge part of surfing is in the mind in so many different ways.

Last edited by indodreams; 01/17/19 05:17 AM.
Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899626
01/17/19 06:16 AM
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I don’t get it why some people get stuck on calling FW build X the same as Pu/Pe.

It’s not the same and thus won’t behave the same. There’s a spring and there’s a damper. You can aim to tune them to be like one another but ultimately they won’t be 100% of the time. Vibrations (the type of dynamic physics) are tricky like that. Resonance and natural frequencies will shift for a board with the otherwise same cut.


a spring and damper model, for example


And yes it can be easy enough to feel. Maybe when paddling around, maybe when paddling in, maybe when surfing or some aspect of surfing. Designers can tune their constructions to feel similar while surfing, or while paddling around or maybe a happy medium for both. But, to claim they’re identical in all conditions is a joke.

They’re going to behave differently because they are different. But, it doesn’t mean you’re wrong for liking it.

Anyone else see the Stretch hand shape on IG? Pipe board. Made it with Clark foam and even mentioned it was Pu for damping characteristics which are different than his EPS. Heh.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: sd_101] #2899636
01/17/19 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: sd_101
For reference, what is the foam density of styrofoam cups? What about coolers of yesteryear?

Serious question.



everyday PU shortboard blanks about 2.2 lb/cubic ft (pcf). Superlight team PU close to 2 pcf.


Wall insulation EPS from Home Depot is 1.0 pcf. This can't handle much compression Vacuum pressure https://www.swaylocks.com/comment/94770#comment-94770

I found about half what the manufacturer said here https://www.insulfoam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/12001-Wall-TDS_WEB-REV8-16.pdf

However I encapsulated it in super strong divinycell or corecell sandwich and obtained a light bullet proof build.


So FW's Helium of 0.8 pcf is extremely light. Which as I said leaves plenty of room in the weight budget for a super strong sandwich, however they compromised a bit and went for a superlight build. On paper should still be strong though.


So on to your question of Styrofoam cup and cooler - wild guess just from looking at the bead size maybe 1.5

Strongest builds are very light EPS and heavy/solid sandwich skin. HS say they use a hi density EPS for their futureflex build. They don't say exactly what, but if it is something like 2.0 then it is not possible to produce a bullet proof build. When I enquired about futureflex on my Chilli thread Hopeless and Havoc said something to the effect of rides decent, not bullet proof.


It looks like the new build (surftech/cobra/domestic) is going to follow the same paradigm. From a couple of days ago - new rail tape, so same rail stringer methodology.



Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899637
01/17/19 09:03 AM
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MrJ, thanks for the comments. cheers

Do you know if anyone has ever attempted to quantify spring constants in the various foams? I imagine lower density means lower K (constant). I’m curious just the foam. Not including the layup or resins.

You see lots of people saying the board feels dead, or chattery. I read that to refer to the damping. Too much damping won’t have a high enough natural frequency while a chattery board may be under damped for what the rider may be accustomed to.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: indodreams] #2899638
01/17/19 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: indodreams
IMHO in regard to FW as a guide in order

Feel as close as possible to PU/PE

LFT
Hellium
FST
Timbertek


In regard to durability

LFT
(then huge huge gap)
Hellium
Timbertek
FST

LFT is more that build for guys that would normally ride PU/PE personally i don't see the point the durability is not that different to a PU/PE board but your risk of a ding that sucks water is there, might as well just ride PU/PE.

All the other builds give much more durability, I've never had any issues with dings sucking water with FST, Timbertek, Hellium because the durability is such that to get an open ding you would need to smash it onto something very very hard even on rock jumps where I've banged my FST boards on rocks I've had trouble finding a scratch.
...


thanks for spelling that out. Its not quite how FW presents it. What is FST?

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899639
01/17/19 09:31 AM
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Hope I’m not hijacking too much nor going too deep off the engineering deep end. I found this interesting in regard to my question to mr j.

Quote:
DISCUSSION
The results of compression tests indicate that the foam of 16 kg/m3 density is not able to resist the mechanical force. The water absorption and reduction in buoyancy for this PU foam is high what indicates a significant number of open pores. The lighter foam shows various disadvantages: great discontinuities (cavities) at the border between portions of the foam, low compressive strength, high water absorption and loss in buoyancy caused by a number of open pores.


FWIW, 16kg/m^3 is basically 1lb/ft^3 density.

from: http://www.pg.gda.pl/mech/kim/AMS/022006/AMS02200605.pdf

This is specific to PU foam and a lot of the conclusion is specific to barge design but gets into similar ideas of what may cause a PU board to feel “dead” after a while.


Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: sd_101] #2899755
01/17/19 05:12 PM
01/17/19 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: sd_101
I don’t get it why some people get stuck on calling FW build X the same as Pu/Pe.

It’s not the same and thus won’t behave the same. There’s a spring and there’s a damper. You can aim to tune them to be like one another but ultimately they won’t be 100% of the time. Vibrations (the type of dynamic physics) are tricky like that. Resonance and natural frequencies will shift for a board with the otherwise same cut.


a spring and damper model, for example


And yes it can be easy enough to feel. Maybe when paddling around, maybe when paddling in, maybe when surfing or some aspect of surfing. Designers can tune their constructions to feel similar while surfing, or while paddling around or maybe a happy medium for both. But, to claim they’re identical in all conditions is a joke.

They’re going to behave differently because they are different. But, it doesn’t mean you’re wrong for liking it.

Anyone else see the Stretch hand shape on IG? Pipe board. Made it with Clark foam and even mentioned it was Pu for damping characteristics which are different than his EPS. Heh.


This is very true, but couldn't the same be said for 2 identical PU/PE boards?


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Mr J] #2899767
01/17/19 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mr J
Strongest builds are very light EPS and heavy/solid sandwich skin. HS say they use a hi density EPS for their futureflex build. They don't say exactly what, but if it is something like 2.0 then it is not possible to produce a bullet proof build. When I enquired about futureflex on my Chilli thread Hopeless and Havoc said something to the effect of rides decent, not bullet proof.


HS uses 2.1 pcf as their standard for custom FF builds. Not sure if the same is used for their offshore FF boards, but they have blanks that are 3% more dense and 3% less dense available as well.

The standard glass schedule on the HS FF builds is a quadaxial layup on top totaling 10.5oz of E-cloth and 4oz E-cloth on the bottom.

I really like the way they feel. Haven't had a single issue with durability and the board is nice and light.


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: jkb] #2899957
01/17/19 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: jkb
This is very true, but couldn't the same be said for 2 identical PU/PE boards?


Yes, it is. And I would believe anyone who has ever ridden a team light board has felt it themselves. Assuming the foam is our spring and the glass schedule is our damping, a lighter layup will have more “pop” while that 6oz heavy glassed board will be stiff but may be better equipped in choppy waves as far as chatter under foot.

It’s all about tuning the board for what you want to feel (and how much you are willing to spend).

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2899959
01/17/19 09:12 PM
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so what damps more the foam or da resin?

fk foam im gonna get hollow boars from now on!


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2900100
01/18/19 12:36 AM
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hollow boar: sum fugger ask me what density my foam is i’ll say same as the air yo’z!


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2900152
01/18/19 03:36 AM
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You could alter the ride of the board with custom air fills from different locations.


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: Retropete] #2900161
01/18/19 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Retropete
You could alter the ride of the board with custom air fills from different locations.


helium ftw! call it the helium build lol


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Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: sd_101] #2901636
01/21/19 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: sd_101
MrJ, thanks for the comments. cheers

Do you know if anyone has ever attempted to quantify spring constants in the various foams? I imagine lower density means lower K (constant). I’m curious just the foam. Not including the layup or resins.

You see lots of people saying the board feels dead, or chattery. I read that to refer to the damping. Too much damping won’t have a high enough natural frequency while a chattery board may be under damped for what the rider may be accustomed to.


Hi sd 101, sorry for the tardy response, I been busy with work and surfing. That's an interesting suggestion of yours to measure damping.

I don't know about just foam, although I think the most meaningful measurements from a surfboard point of view would be with layup too. I am fairly sure no one has done a thorough investigation.

There are 3 things that can be measured that I can think of that affect a surfboards response.

1. Weight - heavy means less responsive.
2. Damping - low damping I think would mean responsive (and chattery).
3 Stiffness - divinycell, corecell and wood sandwich builds are stiff and very responsive, but stiff does not necessarily mean responsive otherwise short 3" thick trad fishes would be bouncing around the place and be super responsive.

Weight is easy. Measurements 2 and 3 above could be done by clamping the tail and cantilevering the board horizontally. Add a weight to the nose and measure distance it drops downwards - that would get us some stiffness measurement. Then with the weight still attached to the nose lift the nose some predetermined amount and release it and measure damping with something or other. I think clamping the tail rather than the nose would make sense, because that end of the board is loaded with boxes and carbon to stop rail crushing so would not be very flexible anyway.

I don't understand the equations for damping, maths is not my strong point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_ratio

Someone called Benjamin Thompson (materials expert and surfing nut) would be able to figure it out. He devised a way for measuring stiffness - that is to find natural frequency - higher the frequency the stiffer the board, so it seems that frequency is not related or directly proportional to damping. Otherwise shock absorbers would have no damping effect on a cars springs if stiffness of springs completely determined damping.

Re: Finally, a QUALITY Asian import surfboard [Re: jkb] #2901637
01/21/19 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: jkb
Originally Posted By: Mr J
Strongest builds are very light EPS and heavy/solid sandwich skin. HS say they use a hi density EPS for their futureflex build. They don't say exactly what, but if it is something like 2.0 then it is not possible to produce a bullet proof build. When I enquired about futureflex on my Chilli thread Hopeless and Havoc said something to the effect of rides decent, not bullet proof.


HS uses 2.1 pcf as their standard for custom FF builds. Not sure if the same is used for their offshore FF boards, but they have blanks that are 3% more dense and 3% less dense available as well.

The standard glass schedule on the HS FF builds is a quadaxial layup on top totaling 10.5oz of E-cloth and 4oz E-cloth on the bottom.

I really like the way they feel. Haven't had a single issue with durability and the board is nice and light.


cheers jkb, That's good to know. I have a feeling that you have told me all this before, but my memory failed me - must be old age laugh

Deck sounds strong, bottom sounds average and rails would be strong from the carbon. A lot of how a board lasts depends on how the user treats them. Some surfers are a bit careless and knock them around a bit or go surfing in rocky places where it is difficult to get in and out of the water without mishaps - they would benefit from a strong shell all round. Others are quite careful, but really heavy with the foot pressure and need a strong deck rather than hull.

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