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Bottom contours and channels #2894767
01/06/19 10:22 PM
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To those of you using or shaping boards with channels what bottom contours do you use? Can you have some concave or would the board get "sticky"? Vee? Concave in front of the channels? Just plain flat?

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2894841
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Assume you're asking about tail channels, since belly channels are part of the bottom contours.

I like single to double to vee out the back. All slight. I've tried extreme single and extreme flat (grin). They all worked for me, but I'm not super picky about bottom contours.

I like widening channels to anchor the tail down a little. Most everyone will have a different opinion about what channels actually do.


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2894856
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My Byrning Spears has six deep channels set in a single to spiral vee bottom. No stickiness, and feels absolutely 'normal', except somehow supercharged and with insane hold.

And just for if GG reads this and has a heart attack over the use of 'spiral vee', I mean vee bottom with concaves either side of the stringer.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2894903
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There is nothing "Spiral" about Double Concave

Spiral is wider circle reducing to smaller circle , like roll tapering to Vee

Alan started doing single to double concaves in his boards around 1983 .

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2894983
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Spiral is wider circle reducing to smaller circle , like roll tapering to Vee


won't the reduction in template width do this naturally( for the most part)?


NOT THAT KIND
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2895011
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
There is nothing "Spiral" about Double Concave

Spiral is wider circle reducing to smaller circle , like roll tapering to Vee

Alan started doing single to double concaves in his boards around 1983 .


Well, that one wasn't hard to predict.

If I just wrote single to double, it could mean the now standard 'double within a single' (i.e., single with subtle spine).

Just for clarification, what is the consensus in GG World on what to call what the rest of the surfing world knows as spiral vee?

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2895028
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"Just for clarification, what is the consensus in GG World on what to call what the rest of the surfing world knows as spiral vee?"

What it visually is - Double Concave


And Maz

When a friend became #2 shaper in the world , he used the term Spiral Vee for Double concave - soon after I saw others making laminates for this on their boards .

My observation is that this attention created its popularity .

Lots of interesting things in this industry .

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2895146
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
"Just for clarification, what is the consensus in GG World on what to call what the rest of the surfing world knows as spiral vee?"

What it visually is - Double Concave


And Maz

When a friend became #2 shaper in the world , he used the term Spiral Vee for Double concave - soon after I saw others making laminates for this on their boards .

My observation is that this attention created its popularity .

Lots of interesting things in this industry .


Greg I know you like flat bottoms and do a lot of channels. Are you channel bottoms flat?

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2895157
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i do wonder who decided this was the correct channel shape, and why


Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2895174
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Yes I do them on my flat bottoms .

I used to do a very slight Tri Plane to Vee then Flat off the tail , 1973- 1990

My longboards had this till 2007

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: 000] #2895182
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most run the channels further up in the center - opposite of your pic

AB reduced the center channel depth nearing the tail .

This one does not - Soo ??? wave2

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2895216
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i mean the shape of the channel as if youre looking at a cross section, perpendicular to the stringer (couldnt find that pic)

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: 000] #2895273
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Square channels have been for a long time. Greg Noll slot bottom .

Late 70's AB lived on the West Side , his channels were round then .

On the North Shore Mike Croteau was making his Air Boards with Square channels .

Very possible this influenced AB's change to square shaped ones .

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2895507
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
"Just for clarification, what is the consensus in GG World on what to call what the rest of the surfing world knows as spiral vee?"

What it visually is - Double Concave


And Maz

When a friend became #2 shaper in the world , he used the term Spiral Vee for Double concave - soon after I saw others making laminates for this on their boards .

My observation is that this attention created its popularity .

Lots of interesting things in this industry .


I'm a bit confused, GG. Would you call a vee bottom with concaves on the vee panels (what I call spiral vee) double concave? And a single with an inset double the same?

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2895523
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Inset or not even you call it a double , because thats what it is .

Spiral Vee is from the 60's reborn by famous shapers later as double concave .

Part of the fun being around this for this long .

Be entertained by all this , it is pretty silly wave2

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2895597
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Inset or not even you call it a double , because thats what it is .

Spiral Vee is from the 60's reborn by famous shapers later as double concave .

Part of the fun being around this for this long .

Be entertained by all this , it is pretty silly wave2



Exactly, so how would you differentiate between them?

I won't call both configurations double concave, because they are so different.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2895641
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Originally Posted By: Maz
Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Inset or not even you call it a double , because thats what it is .

Spiral Vee is from the 60's reborn by famous shapers later as double concave .

Part of the fun being around this for this long .

Be entertained by all this , it is pretty silly wave2



Exactly, so how would you differentiate between them?

I won't call both configurations double concave, because they are so different.

Logic is a super power.

Last edited by sushipop; 01/08/19 09:02 PM.

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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2895681
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"I won't call both configurations double concave, because they are so different."

You've been well programmed .

Both have Double Concave so Both are Double Concave .

One thing you should pay attention to is how these contour changes alter the release down the center of the board .

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2895709
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
"I won't call both configurations double concave, because they are so different."

You've been well programmed .

Both have Double Concave so Both are Double Concave .

One thing you should pay attetion to is how these contour changes alter the release down the center of the board .



FFS, GG.

It's got 5 eighths of fuq all to do with being 'programmed', but everything with trying to communicate clearly.

A ton of modern shortboards have what most call a single to double concave, maybe with a tiny vee out the very back. The double sits within the single, so that a straight edge across the board will touch both rails and not the stringer, until near the rear fin. That is NOT the bottom configuration I was describing.

That one is a single double with a pronounced vee through the back - from ahead of the fins. It does not track up the face like a modern single to double, but goes on rail much more easily. Some like the first type, others not. The point is, however, that they are very different.

A 1986 Ford Fairmont has 4 wheels, and a Ferrari F1 does too, yet they are - tadaaah! - not the same.

If you could please add some insight or clarification, then by all means contribute. If all you have is cryptic mumbling and insults, then don't.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2895760
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Perhaps Pyzel and Scott Ando will chime in with their insight...

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2895772
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Theres no shit talk in my response .

Nothing Cryptic either .

Raise the center spine and it will be freer and go rail to rail better .

Again be aware of how these changes in bottom shape effect the release thru the center , many reduce that and causes problems at higher speed .


1969-70

These Brewers had Spiral Vee - slight roll forward tapering to Vee in the tail
Wide circle spinning down to a very small circle = Vee





At the same time Most of Diffs boards had double concaves in the tail , He did not call it Spiral Vee




I borrowed 1 of each to ride at Waddel creek to compare - great fun , no one out .

The Brewer was more lively






Bye wave2

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2897322
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Ok let's get back to channels and off the history of the term spiral vee debate.

Parallel to stringer or toed? What's the difference?

Also, I imagine a deeper channels, kind of squared, to act sort of like long, low fins, redirecting water. Drive.

Shallow, rounded channels, on the other hand, seem to me like they will only disturb water and maybe make the tail looser because of turbulance?

Anyone can confirm or deny my ruminations?

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2897342
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Good Luck

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2897353
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Originally Posted By: patrolman
Ok let's get back to channels and off the history of the term spiral vee debate.

Parallel to stringer or toed? What's the difference?

Also, I imagine a deeper channels, kind of squared, to act sort of like long, low fins, redirecting water. Drive.

Shallow, rounded channels, on the other hand, seem to me like they will only disturb water and maybe make the tail looser because of turbulance?

Anyone can confirm or deny my ruminations?


Youre not mentioning a very important aspect when it comes to channels. Release. Do you want it to? I think that should be consideration No.1.


"God, please protect me from your followers"
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: SlicedFeet] #2897383
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Are you saying a board with channels won't release or one of those paticular types of channels won't release ?


NOT THAT KIND
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2897392
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Originally Posted By: need 4 speed
Are you saying a board with channels won't release or one of those paticular types of channels won't release ?


The ones I've ridden release perfectly well. Just like you can get fine release on a board with large fins.

Very curious to hear more about toed in channels from those of you more in the know. The idea totally makes sense to me, but I've yet to try it.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2897395
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Originally Posted By: need 4 speed
Are you saying a board with channels won't release or one of those paticular types of channels won't release ?


I think that the whole design really needs thoughtout before hand.

Not trying to echo GG but throwing channels in a regualr board and the normal fins, I think most would think its way overfinned.


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: SlicedFeet] #2897397
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Originally Posted By: SlicedFeet
Originally Posted By: need 4 speed
Are you saying a board with channels won't release or one of those paticular types of channels won't release ?


I think that the whole design really needs thoughtout before hand.

Not trying to echo GG but throwing channels in a regualr board and the normal fins, I think most would think its way overfinned.


Absolutely. Agree completely.

The fins that came with my Byrning Spears are tiny:

https://shapers.com.au/carbon-core-ab01/

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Maz] #2897408
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I have been able to reduce fin size when
I ordered boards with channels.
They seemed like a good idea for my twinzers
Maybe aid in projection
I like the way they look


NOT THAT KIND
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2897460
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Custom fins made for this :



Making 15 more today .

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2897468
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Originally Posted By: need 4 speed

I like the way they look


This is all that matters


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: SlicedFeet] #2897505
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Originally Posted By: SlicedFeet
Originally Posted By: patrolman
Ok let's get back to channels and off the history of the term spiral vee debate.

Parallel to stringer or toed? What's the difference?

Also, I imagine a deeper channels, kind of squared, to act sort of like long, low fins, redirecting water. Drive.

Shallow, rounded channels, on the other hand, seem to me like they will only disturb water and maybe make the tail looser because of turbulance?

Anyone can confirm or deny my ruminations?


Youre not mentioning a very important aspect when it comes to channels. Release. Do you want it to? I think that should be consideration No.1.


Actually I think I mentioned it by saying shallow channels will disturb water (release) making board looser.

I'm looking to hear anecdotal stories from those who have one or the other, or from those who have tried toed vs non toed channels.

And Greg I've always loved your boards, and I did learn from you about hard edges all the way up the rails (speaking of release) and have experimented with that successfully. And you've probably already explained your take on channels multiple times on here, but I'm not on here obsessively and the the search function is...(insert your expletive here). Usually I start delving into design when I making a board, as I do a couple times a year. Last year I made a thruster, first in a decade, and didn't like it (double pump bottom turns make me feel spastic), so I'm at the drawing board.

I've done channels before, but not 4 or 6, and there was so much going on with this board (twinzer, parabolic rails, pendo flex tail, hard edges, e-wing, eps/poly blank, alternaive cloths,,,,) that I can't pinpoint what the channels are doing.

The board worked great and was my daily driver for 6 years (a testimony to nylon non woven "skinz", innegra cloth and vacuum bagging the laminate) but it's gotten tired and in my advancing years I need more float..



Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2897518
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I think toed channels make channels work in chop. This is just my take from putting lots of time in on all conditions on a 8 egg. Being a full bodied board, I was surprised how well it worked in chop the first few times taking it out.

I think the whole chop issue is with deep, parallel to the stringer channels.

I also like the idea of the channels toed to the fins. If their straight, doesnt it seem like the water being channeled would run right into the outside of the rail toed fins thus creating drag.

Like ghostshaper said, they look cool, all of them.


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2897524
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Custom fins made for this :



Making 15 more today .

What adjustments, if any, do you make to your fins when customizing them to a channel bottomed board? Do you make them smaller, adjust the template or foil, adjust toe/cant, position, etc...?


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: sushipop] #2897527
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By riding them I came up with the smaller size I use that allows the board to still drift down and forward like a good standard board with additional constant acceleration the channels create .

I've always toed them in , straight or early 80's curved .

1983 curved channels




Lunch break over - back to grinding drowning

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2897595
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I just shaped my channels.

One thing I noticed that no one mentioned (maybe it's common knowledge)- the channels, at least the ones that go all the way out the back, accelerate significantly a large percentage of the tail area's rocker. Looser?

Also just sanding the channel I had the sensation of the rather sudden drop and imagined water flowing back there sensing a kind of pressure drop and thus accelerating through the channels. Speed?

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: ghostshaper] #2897627
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Originally Posted By: ghostshaper
Originally Posted By: need 4 speed

I like the way they look


This is all that matters

roflmao
archer, not arrow bro
I can make anything work ...
it's just to what degree, that's the question


NOT THAT KIND
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2897630
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Custom fins made for this :



Making 15 more today .


if you feel like responding:
deep channel(like 1/2")?
the bottom of the channel looks to be radiused, True?


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2897636
01/13/19 11:13 PM
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cheers


Trace Marshall on Malibu: "Its like a hybrid of Donald Trump and gutter punks and Burning Man and Gidget."
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2897640
01/13/19 11:21 PM
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I've had 4 boards with channels recently(all twinzer), still have 3 with a new one at the glasser. All are/were 4 channel, 2 deep 2 shallow, all are /were toed to a varying degree. the 2 deep were/are on 6-5 step-up type, I wouldn't say the tail rocker felt excessive or weird riding. They both had a very positive drivey feel, super fun to ride. It's really hard to be sure because these two boards were so much different than the one they replaced(fins now @7"), but they definitely like being ridden off the tail. Where my cedar Nine Lights didn't mind being turned from a slightly forward position. The shallow channels: not really sure if they provide much other than visually. imho
ymmv


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2897679
01/14/19 01:01 AM
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Bottom is slightly round - glasser friendly

Just under 1/2" deep

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: Greg Griffin] #2897695
01/14/19 02:20 AM
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your channels look very nice cheers
and fin template facelick


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2900762
01/19/19 04:53 AM
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I decided for flat bottom with vee in the last third, inside channel toed 1/16", outside channel 1/8", fins toed 3/16"

1.5 lb eps, still need to fine tune..


Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2900781
01/19/19 05:45 AM
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applause2


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2900899
01/19/19 05:11 PM
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Looks good.

I don't think the shape of the channel matters much bc resin ends up filling them in anyway. I think channels disturb water flow, anyway, as water moves diagonally across the board on a turn. This disruption and redirection out the back of the tail would give the board more control/less speed.


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: ghostshaper] #2900959
01/19/19 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: ghostshaper
Looks good.

I don't think the shape of the channel matters much bc resin ends up filling them in anyway. I think channels disturb water flow, anyway, as water moves diagonally across the board on a turn. This disruption and redirection out the back of the tail would give the board more control/less speed.


Yeah, good work, Patrolman.

Ghostshaper, channels definitely don't fill up with resin, except if they're poorly glassed. And if think they're slow, you're in for a treat when you try a good one. It feels like all that lateral force is translated into forward propulsion.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2900987
01/19/19 06:40 PM
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The glassers and sanders must hate doing these boards.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2901011
01/19/19 07:28 PM
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Impressive. bowdown I've always been afraid to even try to glass channels.


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: GDaddy] #2901034
01/19/19 08:14 PM
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@tweak808 posted that he puts like a cheater coat of resin in the bottom of the channel and lets it kick a bit before laying his glass.Then he tucks it in to help/encourage the glass to stay in the bottom of channel while laminating.


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2901042
01/19/19 08:54 PM
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Yeah, twinzerfan shared that one with us some years back, but I'm still afraid.


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2901052
01/19/19 09:31 PM
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I'm going to do a tail patch with 3 oz glass. Then I'm using poplar veneer over that. That'll be tricky. I've never seen anybody do it. Josh Dowling would do his timber boards but when he did channels he would leave that area without wood. I figure I'll take coordinates, split the veneer, and maybe have to do a long vee cut. We'll see...

Epoxy has that stage where it's kind of gummy. I'm going to be nursing the board at that point trying to squish everything into place. It's the tips of the channels, where they come out the back that worry me.

Last edited by patrolman; 01/19/19 09:33 PM.
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2901059
01/19/19 09:54 PM
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Check out Jeff Beck's IG (Nine Lights)


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: GDaddy] #2901060
01/19/19 09:56 PM
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I would think your laminating game (timing) would need to be on point,


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Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2901062
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I've often contemplated how I'd do veneers in channels. Right down to routing in 1/2 depth "stringers" to form the exposed sides of the channels prior to shaping. I've just never been brave enough to try it.


#sowhat
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: GDaddy] #2901109
01/20/19 01:15 AM
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I had thought about bagging some soft 1/16" balsa on the channels, then sand off the top and bottom so that it only covers the sides. But I also wanted to avoid further locking up the flex in the tail. I decided to just paint the channels. Will glass tail patch then see how to fit the veneer. I'll post pics before bagging.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: need 4 speed] #2901112
01/20/19 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: need 4 speed
Check out Jeff Beck's IG (Nine Lights)


Lots of wood, lots of channels...but no wood channels. Wood tail blocks on channeled boards. There was even one photo where he had channels and then set blocks of wood in the channels but no photos of finished products.

I did like the amount of experimentation he's doing. Thanks for pointing him out.

Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2901119
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Originally Posted By: patrolman
I had thought about bagging some soft 1/16" balsa on the channels, then sand off the top and bottom so that it only covers the sides. But I also wanted to avoid further locking up the flex in the tail. I decided to just paint the channels. Will glass tail patch then see how to fit the veneer. I'll post pics before bagging.


One variation I was thinking of was cork. Glue the sides on, trim to the "bottom" face and cover the seam with your veneer or plank.

It seems to me the channels themselves would lock up the flex factors in the tail. I-beam style.


#sowhat
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2901139
01/20/19 02:36 AM
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I've thought about trying to bag channels w my bottom skins. I'm going to try hand lamming the walls of the channel first, cutting the skin along the ridge of the channel, then vacuuming down the skin so it lays flat in the bottom of the channels.


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: ghostshaper] #2904338
01/26/19 11:50 PM
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Giving it a try...

For some reason after cutting the veneer the left 3.5" wide panel shifted about 1/4" to the right. You can see the bottom of the channel in the pic. It was like cutting the veneer released some tension that was in the wood. Before I bagged it I taped it in proper alignment, but then the veneer bulges further up. It's now in the bag and seems to have pulled down but it's under the bubble wrap so I can't really see and won't know until I take the board out of the bag in 6 hours ( I use slow hardener when I bag).

By the way- I painted the sides of channel with tempera and then put a 4 oz patch over the tail before bagging the skin. Glassing channels is interesting socrazy I figured out while doing it how to use two squeegees, one to hold the cloth in place, the other to tuck the channel. If I didn't do that, when I tucked one channel the cloth would pull out of another. banghead






Re: Bottom contours and channels [Re: patrolman] #2930850
03/21/19 03:04 AM
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Been doing several variations of these lately.







Last edited by bsnyder; 03/21/19 03:28 AM.

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