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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: ElOgro] #2894432
01/05/19 11:16 PM
01/05/19 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: ElOgro
I had the kitchen help rounded up in three different restaurants in San Clemente and was never shown a warrant. The migra didnít call in advance. Tell us about your relevant personal experience.


Btw, prior to the new laws the employer could either consent to a search request or demand a warrant. Now there is no consent option.

Knowing this, do you feel good that you let 3 different staffs get rounded up by not requesting a warrant? Is CA safer for it?


Yes. Yes.


Weíre better for some people being in Mexico anyway...

Why did you hire them in the first place?

Last edited by StuAzole; 01/05/19 11:16 PM.

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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: StuAzole] #2894457
01/06/19 12:11 AM
01/06/19 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: ElOgro
I had the kitchen help rounded up in three different restaurants in San Clemente and was never shown a warrant. The migra didnít call in advance. Tell us about your relevant personal experience.


Btw, prior to the new laws the employer could either consent to a search request or demand a warrant. Now there is no consent option.

Knowing this, do you feel good that you let 3 different staffs get rounded up by not requesting a warrant? Is CA safer for it?


Yes. Yes.


Weíre better for some people being in Mexico anyway...

Why did you hire them in the first place?


Who said I hired them?


"That's their respect for me... I got leid," Rabbit Kekai

"That's all it takes--one moment." Sponge
Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2894763
01/06/19 10:12 PM
01/06/19 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Surfdog
OK, there's technicalities for police to do ANYTHING to help the Feds when it comes to immigration, if you want to get all criminal defense lawyery about it (made even more difficult with sanctuary laws). I'll admit part of your argument.

Doesn't seem to matter if a LEGAL citizen breaks a federal law, police hand them over no problem all the time. Illegal immigration is a federal law, why the prejudice against it, specifically? I guess I could demand the same rights if I broke a federal law then, if in local police custody, right?

If it doesn't seem to matter in states without Sanctuary laws, why do some cities and blue states feel the need to have them, if it doesn't really make any difference, legally?

They are basically shutting out or at least handcuffing a federal jurisdiction, using states rights as an argument for it.


If a legal citizen breaks a federal law that citizen is handed to the feds? Ok, letís go with that... cops arest a guy for bank robbery. If heís a citizen he is handed to the FBI. Are you suggesting that if an illegal alien is caught robbing a bank he is set free?

What youíre doing here is comparing two different issues and pretending theyíre the same.

With regard to alerting ICE to possible illegals, the law applies to everyone, not just non-citizens. So where is the difference in treatment? Same goes for bank robbery- illegals get the same treatment as citizens.

See how that works?


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: StuAzole] #2894811
01/07/19 12:27 AM
01/07/19 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: Surfdog
OK, there's technicalities for police to do ANYTHING to help the Feds when it comes to immigration, if you want to get all criminal defense lawyery about it (made even more difficult with sanctuary laws). I'll admit part of your argument.

Doesn't seem to matter if a LEGAL citizen breaks a federal law, police hand them over no problem all the time. Illegal immigration is a federal law, why the prejudice against it, specifically? I guess I could demand the same rights if I broke a federal law then, if in local police custody, right?

If it doesn't seem to matter in states without Sanctuary laws, why do some cities and blue states feel the need to have them, if it doesn't really make any difference, legally?

They are basically shutting out or at least handcuffing a federal jurisdiction, using states rights as an argument for it.


If a legal citizen breaks a federal law that citizen is handed to the feds? Ok, letís go with that... cops arest a guy for bank robbery. If heís a citizen he is handed to the FBI. Are you suggesting that if an illegal alien is caught robbing a bank he is set free?

What youíre doing here is comparing two different issues and pretending theyíre the same.

With regard to alerting ICE to possible illegals, the law applies to everyone, not just non-citizens. So where is the difference in treatment? Same goes for bank robbery- illegals get the same treatment as citizens.

See how that works?


ID cards mean something in the USA. Don't jump the border fence without it.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2894818
01/07/19 12:44 AM
01/07/19 12:44 AM
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Lol. So much for your ďthey get extra legal protection ď stuff. Youíre a wiz at making argument you canít back up. Feelz!


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: StuAzole] #2894821
01/07/19 12:59 AM
01/07/19 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Lol. So much for your ďthey get extra legal protection ď stuff. Youíre a wiz at making argument you canít back up. Feelz!


If they're protected by "special" laws that hinder local jurisdictions from notifying the feds about suspect illegal immigrants, that's "extra" legal protection, no matter HOW you want to spin it. That's only a small part of what Sanctuary laws do.

It may not be much to you, but it's enough to allow some illegal immigrant criminals to go free in some cases. If the local police can't even TRY to determine if they have illegality in the USA or other fed crimes, it could be considered negligence to some, but not to criminal defense types.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2894859
01/07/19 03:01 AM
01/07/19 03:01 AM
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No itís not. You also arenít subject to ice as a result of local cooperation.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: StuAzole] #2894864
01/07/19 03:22 AM
01/07/19 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
No itís not. You also arenít subject to ice as a result of local cooperation.


You have heard of this case, right?

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2004/03-1423

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muehler_v._Mena

California (and cities) Sanctuary laws prevent this from even happening.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2894882
01/07/19 05:18 AM
01/07/19 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: Surfdog
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
No itís not. You also arenít subject to ice as a result of local cooperation.


You have heard of this case, right?

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2004/03-1423

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muehler_v._Mena

California (and cities) Sanctuary laws prevent this from even happening.


The case involved a wanted gang member. CA sanctuary laws specifically carve out gang members and allow local cooperation with ICE. And they had a warrant.

You literally have no clue about this stuff.

BTW, did you read the portion of that case where they acknowledged Mena was, in fact, a legal resident? So for all your crying, you just gave me a case that didn't even involve an illegal alien. Lulz.

__

But letís try again. Questions about status are just the start. I asked you several times what comes next. So tell me, what comes next, but not when the person is a wanted gang member - because CA laws allow cooperation there already - but an elderly woman who allegedly stole a can of soup from the store?


Last edited by StuAzole; 01/07/19 04:19 PM.

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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: StuAzole] #2895012
01/07/19 05:32 PM
01/07/19 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: Surfdog
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
No itís not. You also arenít subject to ice as a result of local cooperation.


You have heard of this case, right?

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2004/03-1423

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muehler_v._Mena

California (and cities) Sanctuary laws prevent this from even happening.


The case involved a wanted gang member. CA sanctuary laws specifically carve out gang members and allow local cooperation with ICE. And they had a warrant.

You literally have no clue about this stuff.

BTW, did you read the portion of that case where they acknowledged Mena was, in fact, a legal resident? So for all your crying, you just gave me a case that didn't even involve an illegal alien. Lulz.

__

But letís try again. Questions about status are just the start. I asked you several times what comes next. So tell me, what comes next, but not when the person is a wanted gang member - because CA laws allow cooperation there already - but an elderly woman who allegedly stole a can of soup from the store?



Once again, ID.

If it's legit, even a expired green card, no problems. Without it, then a notification goes out, if there's indications of non-legal status, that's all it takes (no valid ID, no english). Local police just hold them until INS arrives. INS will sort it out.

Sanctuary laws prevent this.

Everyone of age has some kind of ID on them, even if it's another countries.


Surf 'em if you got 'em
Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2895032
01/07/19 05:54 PM
01/07/19 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Surfdog
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: Surfdog
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
No itís not. You also arenít subject to ice as a result of local cooperation.


You have heard of this case, right?

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2004/03-1423

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muehler_v._Mena

California (and cities) Sanctuary laws prevent this from even happening.


The case involved a wanted gang member. CA sanctuary laws specifically carve out gang members and allow local cooperation with ICE. And they had a warrant.

You literally have no clue about this stuff.

BTW, did you read the portion of that case where they acknowledged Mena was, in fact, a legal resident? So for all your crying, you just gave me a case that didn't even involve an illegal alien. Lulz.

__

But letís try again. Questions about status are just the start. I asked you several times what comes next. So tell me, what comes next, but not when the person is a wanted gang member - because CA laws allow cooperation there already - but an elderly woman who allegedly stole a can of soup from the store?



Once again, ID.

If it's legit, even a expired green card, no problems. Without it, then a notification goes out, if there's indications of non-legal status, that's all it takes (no valid ID, no english). Local police just hold them until INS arrives. INS will sort it out.

Sanctuary laws prevent this.

Everyone of age has some kind of ID on them, even if it's another countries.


Given that the majority of illegals are visa overstays, why would you accept an expired green card here? Would a school ID work? How about a drivers license? Library card? None of those show legal status, but that's what almost everyone would carry.

But I digress. You realize that cops can't just hold people indefinitely, even if they don't have an ID on them and are speaking a foreign language? That's got nothing to do with sanctuary laws.

You realize that if a cop holds someone who's without an ID but turns out to be a legal resident, that's probably going to be a lawsuit against the local jurisdiction, yes? That's got nothing to do with sanctuary laws.

Where do they hold the person? Who pays for it? Costs associated with this have nothing to do with sanctuary laws.

CA's sanctuary laws carve out violent criminals and gang members, which is where the deportation focus should be. If ICE can't currently follow what's going on in CA, they should staff up, starting with violent criminals. The vast majority of illegals aren't a threat to anyone. Local cops aren't immigration cops. Local residents shouldn't front the costs of immigration enforcement.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2895033
01/07/19 05:56 PM
01/07/19 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Surfdog
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
Originally Posted By: Surfdog
Originally Posted By: StuAzole
No itís not. You also arenít subject to ice as a result of local cooperation.


You have heard of this case, right?

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2004/03-1423

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muehler_v._Mena

California (and cities) Sanctuary laws prevent this from even happening.


The case involved a wanted gang member. CA sanctuary laws specifically carve out gang members and allow local cooperation with ICE. And they had a warrant.

You literally have no clue about this stuff.

BTW, did you read the portion of that case where they acknowledged Mena was, in fact, a legal resident? So for all your crying, you just gave me a case that didn't even involve an illegal alien. Lulz.

__

But letís try again. Questions about status are just the start. I asked you several times what comes next. So tell me, what comes next, but not when the person is a wanted gang member - because CA laws allow cooperation there already - but an elderly woman who allegedly stole a can of soup from the store?



Once again, ID.

If it's legit, even a expired green card, no problems. Without it, then a notification goes out, if there's indications of non-legal status, that's all it takes (no valid ID, no english). Local police just hold them until INS arrives. INS will sort it out.

Sanctuary laws prevent this.

Everyone of age has some kind of ID on them, even if it's another countries.


I've gotta ask - what point did you think you were proving by citing that lawsuit?


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: StuAzole] #2895043
01/07/19 06:11 PM
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You had implied earlier that local police can't and shouldn't be allowed to inquire on immigration status. That case directly countered that claim.

Sanctuary laws prohibit it even further, major criminal or minor criminal activity.

Do a crime, you do the time, if you're a legal resident at least.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2895053
01/07/19 06:23 PM
01/07/19 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Surfdog
You had implied earlier that local police can't and shouldn't be allowed to inquire on immigration status. That case directly countered that claim.

Sanctuary laws prohibit it even further, major criminal or minor criminal activity.

Do a crime, you do the time, if you're a legal resident at least.


I suggested they shouldn't do it, because it's not their job.

I suggested they shouldn't do it, because there are costs associated with it that local jurisdictions aren't ready to handle.

I suggested they shouldn't do it, because they're not trained to do it.

I suggested they shouldn't do it to people that aren't a threat.

I never suggested they're not allowed to do it in cases of more dangerous criminals or gang members. You did (incorrectly).

You keep talking in circles, and don't appear to understand what is actually allowed under current CA sanctuary laws. If you did, you wouldn't have posted links to a case that dealt with a known violent gang member who was a legal citizen as your big gotcha here.

You have simplistic ideas of how this all works. And like everything else that has to do with this topic, you're operating off of feelz instead of facts.


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Re: California Cop Killer Caught - [Re: Surfdog] #2895055
01/07/19 06:32 PM
01/07/19 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Surfdog
You had implied earlier that local police can't ... inquire on immigration status. That case directly countered that claim.



I've never suggested it's unconstitutional to inquire about legal status. I've just pointed out that there are lots of legal issues that come along with doing so and then taking the next steps of holding people you're unsure about and handing them over to ICE.

Maybe consider a case like this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/20...m=.3facb4e35390

Would you be OK if Oceanside was force to bear the financial burden in a case like this if ICE has them hold a guy without a warrant?


Or how about this one? https://www.sbsun.com/2017/12/19/aclu-fi...of-grandmother/



Last edited by StuAzole; 01/07/19 06:38 PM.

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