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Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: goingright] #2894204
01/05/19 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: goingright
no doubt. I can't think of the name but this dude wrote a book that I read a while back.
He says basically that it robs us of enjoyment when we are presented with too many options.
Walk into a clothing store to Buy jeans and you have 10 different options. (Skinny, slim, relaxed, straight, boot cut etc)
Carbon, EPS, Aerospace, Space shuttle foam, this and that ...wtf
Keeping up with this shit is endless. Oh hell, just try to keep up with every board model that comes out for instance from lost website is fukkkin hell. Uber driver, Lyft Driver , taxi driver, couch potato, sofa potato

Fukkk man,, pick up a board, go have fun. No need to stress about you should be on hat

EDIT: Found the dude..lol
https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/149151423X



So true.

How many of you really experiment with fins in your surfboards? Perhaps we should but most people don't. I put a set of fins in a board and the only time they come out is if the board is going on an airplane or if the board flat out doesn't work. So far I've had exactly one board that improved dramatically by using different fins and once I found the right set that's all that will ever be in that board. There's probably a lot of people like that.

Same thing with boards. Forget all the board names and hype. Go to a shop that has a good selection and dig through the racks until you find a shape that is pleasing to your eye. Buy it. Go have fun.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: Mr J] #2894206
01/05/19 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: Aruka
FW seem like they should be durable but I don't really buy it.

Saw a buddy buckl his FW longboard in waist high waves. Thing was nearly new.

When I was in J-Bay I went to a ding guy to get a fin box repaired and the dude had a stack, like 10+ FW boards in the corner all buckled or snapped. I guess there are a couple guys there who are FW sponsored or get flow or something. Ding guy was not impressed by the foam faux stringers and the de-laminating wood veneers.

I'm sure you could break a board at J-bay but it's definitely not what I would consider a super heavy board breaking type wave so I dunno.

Coils are probably the most durable boards I've owned as far as dings but I did break one surfing a heavy beachbreak.

.


Aruka, that's a useful distinction of longevity/strength types you bring up with the Coil example. There are two different types under discussion here:

1. Ability to resist dings, dents, delams.

2. Snap/buckle resistance.

And I suppose there is ability to retain its "pop" which I think goes hand in hand with number 1. above.

As surfers putting our boards through general use we can draw some conclusions about durability type number 1. However, the only way of determining snap/buckle resistance is under controlled scientific conditions in a materials lab due to the random nature of circumstances that snap boards. For this reason anecdotal reports of boards snapping are next to useless. Additionally these reports sometimes come loaded with some alternative agenda to either discredit or credit a particular brand for ideological reasons. It sounds like you are just reporting what you see, but really a stack of broken FWs with no stack of broken pu boards being displayed by a repairer sounds suspicious to me.

I had a look at the varial website and they have used such a machine as shown below on some test panels. 3 point test doesn't exactly replicate a wave breaking a board, but I would trust this sort of test much more than anecdotes.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4qCI4bV3jQI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2894315
01/05/19 06:19 PM
01/05/19 06:19 PM
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I've bought many OTR and custom boards over the last few years and nowadays a PU/PE board from a reputable builder lasts just as well for me as any others. I agree with the sentiment not to overthink things too much.

Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: GromsDad] #2895372
01/08/19 05:36 AM
01/08/19 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.

Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895389
01/08/19 08:37 AM
01/08/19 08:37 AM
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Ive been riding mostly Firewire boards for almost ten years now had between 10 to 15 still have four FW's, I've seen no difference in FST over that time still extremely durable only snapped one in Indonesian waves and lightly creased another (also snapped a Chilli EPS/Epoxy in fibreflex)

Compared to when i only rode PU/PE my snapping rate is similar and i have seen quite a few snapped ones in Indonesia, so from that perspective maybe they are not stronger than a standard PU/PE board.

Durability wise though just dings and cracks etc FST is super durable IMHO it's about three times more durable than an average PU/PE board, the only true damage I've had to any boards ding wise is from airline travel, cracked rails and tails, but if they were PU/PE boards you can bet the damage would have been much worse.

I do think a board can actually be too durable though for instance i like FST but the decks are pretty hard so get no foot wells and i like slight foot wells.

While their relatively new build Hellium IMHO is now the perfect balance between bottom and rail durability and a softer deck that gets slight foot wells and i think the deck just feels a bit better underfoot being softer.

100% though all EPS/Epoxy boards are not equal in durability or feel, even in Firewire range of techs they are very different pretty much all Slater Designs boards and lots of Tomos are in LFT which durability wise IMHO isn't that much different from a standard PU/PE board.


Last edited by indodreams; 01/08/19 09:02 AM.
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: NinjaPete] #2895394
01/08/19 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: NinjaPete
I consider my boards with wood or cork veneers as lifetime investments. Timbertek, Danny Hess, Stretch Legacy, Notox etc... They won't yellow and grow ugly and noodly like a PU board. Cork especially has really good properties for surviving a lifetime in water. I like the flex/feel of a cork board better than standard EPS. Plus, they just look cool especially when veneers are combined to make cool patterns.

https://youtu.be/6tNsfQz5hUM


my favourite build at the moment is VH eps core, then a sandwich skin of 4oz glass, 1mm cork, 2 or 4 oz glass over the cork.
- lightweight
- retains pop
- cork dampens the eps chatter
- pretty tough when it comes to dings (if you crack the outer layer - the cork is usually tough enough to absorb the impact and protect the inner layer)

I was previously doing exposed cork decks, but i'm finding using the cork in the middle of the laminate sandwich is working better for me.

Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: Mr J] #2895440
01/08/19 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895528
01/08/19 06:07 PM
01/08/19 06:07 PM
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I'm surprised that Varial didn't publish strength test comparisons of similar density PU, EPS, and Varial blanks side by side. That would be the logical test to determine which foam is stronger. Perhaps they did and didn't like the results shrug

The glass schedule data is interesting though. Didn't expect PE to be as strong as it is.


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Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: GromsDad] #2895633
01/08/19 08:56 PM
01/08/19 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.


Really?

My understanding is EPS foam retains its original shape from compression a lot better than PU foam.

For instance press in each foam before glassing and EPS will bounce back to original shape or close while PU foam will retain more of a finger mark.

Epoxy resin is generally softer and almost more rubber like than PE resin.

Hence why EPS/Epoxy is a good combo and less likely to retain the ding shape or crack when dinged because both are more likely to bounce back to original shape..

I would have expected??? if any extra resin was needed or composite construction used it was because the combo of EPS and Epoxy is lighter than PU/PE plus because of the more rubbery nature of Epoxy you are more likely to be able to create a composite construction that is strong but still allows the board to flex.

While id imagine a composite construction in PU/PE would create much more weight and be stiffer and less flex (risk of crack or delams) so not a good combo.

That was just what I've been told and understand and figured.


Last edited by indodreams; 01/08/19 08:58 PM.
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895770
01/09/19 01:08 AM
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Varial says they busted the myth of epoxy being stiffer. Who ever said it's stiffer? Epoxy doesn't spider crack b/c it's more flexible. There are different formulae of epoxy w/ different flex characteristics, too.

EPS comes in different densities, just like PU, so you have to compare similar densities. EPS has way more memory than PU, which is more brittle. You can feel it shaping, in which EPS wants to compress and spring back; whereas, PU will crumble cleanly. PU is way easier to sand and screen.

But think if you're constantly flexing your board while up and riding, which is going to last longer, PU/PE or EPS/epoxy? PU/PE is more brittle, both in the foam core and the resin. Microfractures and fatigue are real in carbon/epoxy frames in tennis rackets, and probably golf shafts (I don't golf) and rods.


Organized competition is entirely peripheral to surfing qua surfing. People surf for love. - William Finnegan
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895820
01/09/19 05:14 AM
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Possibly the myth of it being stiffer and having that chatter type feel and feeling every lump or bump on a wave comes from early EPS/Epoxy combos like the true pop outs like Proc Circuit boards in the 90s and even Surf Tech where they were very stiff composites.

IMHO people still hang onto these beliefs because at one point they were very true, and probably still are if you buy a EPS/Epoxy board that has a boat like build, but IMHO i don't find these characteristics true in the EPS/Epoxy boards i ride. (and my local is made up of rip banks that have lots of bumps and lumps even ion offshore days)

In regard to constant flexing of a board which all boards do when surfed, that could possibly be a reason why PU/PE feels very lively when new but over time tends to lose that feel because PU/PE is affected more by micro fractures and fatigue every time it flexes those little cells are getting crushed and not returning to there original shape, while EPS and Epoxy has more memory so over time its structure doesn't change as much.

Also doesn't polyester resin continue to harden with time?

Last edited by indodreams; 01/09/19 05:16 AM.
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895832
01/09/19 06:53 AM
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I still find the latest EPS/epoxy builds chattery and horrible to ride in bump.

It's no myth for me.


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Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895836
01/09/19 07:06 AM
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I dislike EPS ride, but enjoy the durability.
I dislike PU durability, but enjoy the ride.
I LOVE XTR, both the ride and durability.

Last edited by Racer1; 01/09/19 07:06 AM.
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: indodreams] #2895886
01/09/19 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: indodreams
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.


Really?

My understanding is EPS foam retains its original shape from compression a lot better than PU foam.

For instance press in each foam before glassing and EPS will bounce back to original shape or close while PU foam will retain more of a finger mark.

Epoxy resin is generally softer and almost more rubber like than PE resin.

Hence why EPS/Epoxy is a good combo and less likely to retain the ding shape or crack when dinged because both are more likely to bounce back to original shape..

I would have expected??? if any extra resin was needed or composite construction used it was because the combo of EPS and Epoxy is lighter than PU/PE plus because of the more rubbery nature of Epoxy you are more likely to be able to create a composite construction that is strong but still allows the board to flex.

While id imagine a composite construction in PU/PE would create much more weight and be stiffer and less flex (risk of crack or delams) so not a good combo.

That was just what I've been told and understand and figured.



Ding resistance and buckle resistance are two different things. Yes EPS rebounds better than other foams but it is also inherently softer and easier to compress. On a typical compression ding scenario this would be a good thing as the foam and glass would rebound. Not so much in a board buckling scenario. I mentioned hoop strength and the I-Beam effect earlier. These come into play here. An I-Beam uses the center web to maintain the space between the top and bottom of the beam. This creates a very strong structure. A softer or more flexible foam like EPS will allow the foam between the top and bottom layers of glass to compress under a buckling load, the hoop strength of the rails breaks down and the board buckles or breaks. The foam core of the surfboard acts as the web in an I-Beam and helps maintain the hoop strength of the circular form of the rails and the I-Beam effect of the top and bottom skins.

Its all a give and take in the selection of materials.

You could also go to the extreme on the strength of the outer skin and eliminate the core material altogether and what you would end up with is the Aviso hollow carbon fiber board. (Do they still even make those?)

I know everyone hates Surftech but their technique and the work of Bert Burger at Sunova is probably the strongest method. In a nutshell they use light eps for the center core but the skin is made up of a layer of thin glass followed by Divinicel and topped with another layer of glass. Its in essense an I-Beal built on top of an I-Beam.


“I always thank God I didn't go to film school because I would have learned that I couldn't be doing what I've been doing already.” - Bruce Brown,
Re: Board longevity/durability [Re: manbearpig] #2895902
01/09/19 03:06 PM
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Pu vs. Any kind of eps

The pu rides consistent in all waves

Eps has to awesome boards , thin hpsb and these ride well in all conditions and most good surfers like them
High volume hybrids are also rad but unfortunately the thickness and foam qualities will make them bumpy in choppy waves

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