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Re: New Futures box? [Re: Havoc4k] #2870519
11/03/18 11:38 PM
11/03/18 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Havoc4k
so futurds adds sum cabron to the box and calls it good. this is the upgrade after two decades. still same crappy wuality control where u have to sand or shim to get a fin to fit. oh n crap grub screw is still there lolz


Maybe that’s the fault of the fin box installer, glasser, etc....

I’ve had about a dozen boards with futures and quite a fin collection and they all fit in all boards.

All of the fins I have are either Futures or True Ames.


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Re: New Futures box? [Re: rts265] #2870520
11/03/18 11:39 PM
11/03/18 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: rts265
Originally Posted By: Havoc4k
so futurds adds sum cabron to the box and calls it good. this is the upgrade after two decades. still same crappy wuality control where u have to sand or shim to get a fin to fit. oh n crap grub screw is still there lolz


I'm all futures but applause2

I have a deburring tool, I've learned about tapping, grinding down the actual fin

I hate getting new boards because of the fin headache.

I paid over 1k for a boutique custom and it came with no grubs, one of them was stripped - a shaper (Brog) who helped me retap it with a 1/4" agreed it was the material. At those prices the glassers or whoever should be doing some QC before installing! Still pissed about it! fight


Wait, you got a fucked up board that was a custom?

Shocker....


“No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn”

- The Wasp
Re: New Futures box? [Re: Greg Griffin] #2870521
11/03/18 11:41 PM
11/03/18 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Since we are talking fin installs, how about glass ons. They were only attached to the “skin” of the board. I can’t remember ever seeing delam underneath the fins, or am I mistaken. Whats the load difference and flex?

Always fun showing a Glass on fan how that bottom layer would flex compared to a system box .


I’m going back to glassons.....


“No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn”

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Re: New Futures box? [Re: rts265] #2870611
11/04/18 07:37 AM
11/04/18 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: rts265

I paid over 1k for a boutique custom and it came with no grubs, one of them was stripped - a shaper (Brog) who helped me retap it with a 1/4" agreed it was the material. At those prices the glassers or whoever should be doing some QC before installing! Still pissed about it! fight


Same here. Happened to me twice with XTR. Asked Shey to please, please, please check the boxes before putting them in. Got them working on a new board, so hoping it'll get checked... shrug


“The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea.”
Re: New Futures box? [Re: Greg Griffin] #2870664
11/04/18 03:55 PM
11/04/18 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Since we are talking fin installs, how about glass ons. They were only attached to the “skin” of the board. I can’t remember ever seeing delam underneath the fins, or am I mistaken. Whats the load difference and flex?

Always fun showing a Glass on fan how that bottom layer would flex compared to a system box .


Hmm, I can't remember ever having a board with glass-ons that didn't develop at least one loose fin that required removal and reglassing.

Re: New Futures box? [Re: silentbutdeadly] #2870734
11/04/18 06:04 PM
11/04/18 06:04 PM
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Cloth covering box sanded off. This happens when depth of router hole for box is too shallow. Box sits too high & cloth is sanded off in order to make flat. Fiberglass covering box is critical.


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Re: New Futures box? [Re: silentbutdeadly] #2870736
11/04/18 06:06 PM
11/04/18 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: silentbutdeadly
anyone know what may cause cracking in the glass right near the rear of the plug? It happened to both of his newer boars without hitting anything (at least that he knew). Bad install?


Cloth covering box sanded off. This happens when depth of router hole for box is too shallow. Box sits too high & cloth is sanded off in order to make flat. Fiberglass covering box is critical.


Barry Snyder
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Re: New Futures box? [Re: daave] #2870746
11/04/18 06:30 PM
11/04/18 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: daave
Have certainly had this happen with several (otherwise well-glassed) glass-on boards. I believe GG and some others would actually rout the glass ons in - seems like a lot of work but probably the best way to install glass-ons.

Board is glassed and finished as normal, then the slots are routed through the glassing at the desired cant

Fins are finished prior to install, full length tang extends 1" deep. These are 1/4" FR4 (black G10) panels. I've notched the leading and trailing edges of the fin so they sit above the glass and scuffed the tang to get the adhesion. To install, I wrap the tang with a layer of non-woven veil (for adhesion and 4oz woven and glass them into the slot with epoxy.

No fillet at the base. The bases of these fins will not flex.


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Re: New Futures box? [Re: GDaddy] #2870783
11/04/18 08:45 PM
11/04/18 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Originally Posted By: daave
Have certainly had this happen with several (otherwise well-glassed) glass-on boards. I believe GG and some others would actually rout the glass ons in - seems like a lot of work but probably the best way to install glass-ons.

Board is glassed and finished as normal, then the slots are routed through the glassing at the desired cant

Fins are finished prior to install, full length tang extends 1" deep. These are 1/4" FR4 (black G10) panels. I've notched the leading and trailing edges of the fin so they sit above the glass and scuffed the tang to get the adhesion. To install, I wrap the tang with a layer of non-woven veil (for adhesion and 4oz woven and glass them into the slot with epoxy.

No fillet at the base. The bases of these fins will not flex.


rad! thats how glassons should be done! cheers


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Re: New Futures box? [Re: pee_pee] #2870810
11/04/18 09:42 PM
11/04/18 09:42 PM
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In my youth, Before I ripped off a glassed on fin, I had always assumed that they were recessed into the foam like the pics above as it did not seem to me the fillet glass foam alone could have the required strength.

When removable fins became popular in the 90's, I liked how FCS1 column of resin was supposed to attach to the deck, and extra glass reinforcement on the deck and widening the circles on the deck made for a solid foot to fin connection, but two tab fcs flex at tab base. No good for my 215+lb ass. It was just a matter of time before I sheared off a fin during a turn especially with the early plastic fins. Many a ruined session.

Some Aussies over on Sways designed a 3d printable finbox to accept both futures and FCS 1 and 2 and will share the file with anyone free. I have not yet wrapped my head around the futures canted base in such a system though.

https://www.swaylocks.com/forums/universal-fin-system

Seems any fin system can be beefed up by someone not looking at a clock, and any system can appear cosmetically fine and weak as Fvck through pure halfassery or ignorance or a helping of both

Re: New Futures box? [Re: sternwake] #2870814
11/04/18 10:13 PM
11/04/18 10:13 PM
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The resin column attached to the deck worked well pre CNC shaped blanks. Clark foam's close tolerance blanks were denser out by the outer skin. So, hand shapers would take the majority of the foam out of the bottom and lightly skin the decks. Tying into the deck and denser foam made sense. The shaping machines and ultra light blanks made the foam in the deck area much less dense. So, through to deck box mounting caused ridges and breaks in the tail deck from people crushing the foam around the rigid resin or box in the case of Red X. Both of these systems had a very small foot print and allowed a significant amount of tail flex. So, if you take the time to create a strong deck, they are great options for tale flex consistency.

Last edited by tom@daumtooling; 11/05/18 12:38 AM.
Re: New Futures box? [Re: pee_pee] #2870985
11/05/18 06:39 PM
11/05/18 06:39 PM
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Futures could improve their system by slightly tapering their fin bases and boxes. You'll have to buy new fins, but it would produce an even more solid connection and reduce fitment problems.


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Re: New Futures box? [Re: SlicedFeet] #2873715
11/10/18 05:43 AM
11/10/18 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: SlicedFeet
Originally Posted By: jkb




Just where is “Flex” supposed to occur? socrazy


A difference, between the current futures box and say the FCS II is that if you were to hold a box prior to install you would be able to twist the futures one by holding each end. Maybe that's what the Instagram post is talking about.

I don't think it can be lengthwise flex because of the deep beam effect of the fin base seat, plus what others have said about a screwed down fin would stop that anyway. Maybe a screwed down fin would still allow a little twist due to some slippage from the shearing forces, I don't know, how much..

Re: New Futures box? [Re: SlicedFeet] #2873720
11/10/18 06:18 AM
11/10/18 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: SlicedFeet
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Ever push on a fin tip?


Oh Noodle factor... blush

So what degree from horizontal board surface is optimal? Or is that ride number? Or something like that. Or construction.

So do the fin people know more about boards than board makers?

Why is this so confusinf still to me?

To be honest, I still can’t fathom how boards surf on a wave.


"Noodle Factor" laugh I think that's a more helpful explanation for most peoples purposes than "Ride Number".

From what I understand Futures "Ride Number" is an attempt to dumb down the technicalities of the fins "grovel factor". I say attempt, because it ends up confusing people.

There are a few things that help and theoretically help grovelling:
1. Bigger fin area - slower speed => less hold/drive => compensate with increased area. Similar to the idea that a sailboarder will put a bigger sail on for lighter winds. So you might see a high ride number fin that is size medium have a slightly higher area than another size medium from the futures range with lower ride number.
2. Camber on fin side which faces stringer - similar theory to glider wings which frequently feature an under camber to get more lift out of less area/speed. The high ride number fins sometimes feature this.
3. More noodle movement - I have seen some futures blurb about being sprung out of turns, but I don't believe this. There may be an advantage for a fin tip that twists away from the stringer when loaded - reduces "induced drag". You can google induced drag and wing tips, but basically the idea is to allow the tip to twist and reduce the AoA - this will reduce hold at the tip, but it will also reduce drag. This is theoretical and I haven't seen Futures say this. Induced drag occurs most at lower speeds, so it makes theoretical sense.

However, the biggest thing I notice when on my high ride number AM II blackstix is the noodle factor. They do always seem to be grabbing at the water when I am pumping the board non-stop compared to say stiffer fins in the same board. Maybe this grabbing feeling (which some don't like) is helping propel me forward - I can't say for sure.


What is very noticeable is when the waves get a decent amount of push at about say head height or more - the stiffer futures seem far more solid off the bottom and I feel I can get more drive out of it in that situation. Despite this I still like the blackstix in my stubby new flyer. I find it hard to imagine that anyone with a decent amount of weight and power could get on with blackstix - I'm not exactly high in those departments and I can really notice the noodle difference.


I have FCS II carbon Performers in my small wave Chilli minibird - they have an undercamber and I like this fin in that board, however they also went perfectly well in my HPSB/step up. I do not know how much the undercamber is doing for me, but one thing for sure is that they have a lot less noodle factor than blackstix which is why they went perfectly well in bigger waves too. Despite both sharing undercambers the futures blackstix and fcs carbons are vey different fins.


To answer you last question about whether the fin people know more than the board makers, my impression is that the two Fin company incumbents might have employed people who have attempted a deeper theoretical understanding because they both have used towing tanks (if I remember correctly). However, I don't think they know more about board design, because all the generally accepted board design knowledge that we have today is a result of trial and error, not going through physics equations and scientific towing tank testing. Instead this knowledge gets discussed and learned from other shapers, refined from personal shaper/surfer experience and team rider/customer feedback.

edit--> I suppose it could be argued that designs based on the Simmons outline is scientific, because it was based on aspect ratios obtained from Lindsay Lord's model boat towing experiments. However even this is more in the category of trial and error/rider feedback and inspired by empirical testing. Whereas the rocket scientists have been able to get rockets to the moon based on Newton's physics without prior pilot feedback.

Last edited by Mr J; 11/10/18 06:27 AM.
Re: New Futures box? [Re: Mr J] #2874276
11/12/18 08:44 AM
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^^ TLDR

Substitute "Grovel Factor" for "Ride Number" and your understanding of how Futures presents their fin range will be golden.

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