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Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433609
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Again, it's the column on the left that concerns me. A 21% approval rate for muslim extremism *in the U.S.* concerns me greatly. And the possibility of bringing more of these folks in from other regions concerns me even more.





You know as well as I do that the feds are limiting their screening for criminal records and other indications of direct association with violent extremists. IMO that's not enough, not by a long shot.

When they can claim a zero-defect screen for sympathizers, people whose kids are less likely to work their way into extremism when they grow up, THEN I'll address my need for compassion for my fellow man. Our external interests for refugee populations are subordinate to our own internal interests.



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Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: GDaddy] #2433611
12/14/15 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Frv

You don't get it. I'm not talking only in terms of "terrorist". I'm also talking about the jihadi sympathizers, which as a group among muslims is significant.



In the above table it's not the "never" column that has any impact on my opinions, but the other 3 categories that concern me. Obviously hardly any of these people are "terrorists" but then again the terrs can't operate without support from their respective constituencies, and THOSE people are part of these percentages shown above.


Glad to see you're looking at the glass as 20% empty. You can make a similar argument re: pro-lifers and people like Scott Roeder and Robert Lewis Dear can't you?

Originally Posted By: GDaddy
I know you DGAF, but I want my government to avoid adding even one more head to those percentages. Not one.


And you think that it's gonna stop if we keep applying military solutions? Did you read the article I posted this morning in the thread re: Obama's speech?

I'll post the link again to save you the trouble of finding it...

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/11/the-...campaign=buffer

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433617
12/14/15 06:03 PM
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You're damn right I'm looking at the glass where 21% of our domestic muslim population and presumably even higher percentages elsewhere catches my attention. That's too high. Way too high. If those numbers only added up to 3% it would still be way too high.

Moreover, the poll reports what these people are telling the pollsters of their own attitudes. My guess is that the real numbers may be much higher.

Sure, I'm prepared to deal with every muslim I meet as an individual and I will not lose sight of the fact that the majority of them are just regular folks and are not our enemies. But that doesn't preclude me from understanding in the macro that on at least some level that some of them are hostile to our values and our way of life.

I do not care why these numbers are this high. I just don't care, so you can spare yourself the effort of waging the moral equivalency argument or the white guilt thing because I just DGAF. Our interests come before theirs'. If you want to surrender to them then go right ahead, but you can count me out.


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Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433628
12/14/15 06:15 PM
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Who said anything about surrendering? I just don't believe in indulging the islamic extemists by taking on the role of the judeo-christian half of the holy war they desire.

What's interesting to me about the numbers you posted are the numbers are notably higher in Palestine, a region where the muslims are being persecuted the most and you want to persecute more and expect that to fix things.

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433633
12/14/15 06:21 PM
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You're welcome to say whatever you want about our foreign policy because as far as I'm concerned that has no bearing on our immigration policy. If you want to help those people then lets fund their resettlement over there, in societies with which they share far more common interests. It'll be cheaper and easier for us, and their odds for thriving will actually be far better.


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Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: frvcvs] #2433638
12/14/15 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Who said anything about surrendering? I just don't believe in indulging the islamic extemists by taking on the role of the judeo-christian half of the holy war they desire.

What's interesting to me about the numbers you posted are the numbers are notably higher in Palestine, a region where the muslims are being persecuted the most and you want to persecute more and expect that to fix things.


You really believe that not opening the borders of the US to anyone who wants to come here is a form of persecution? I guess there really is nothing left to talk about.


Originally Posted By: StuAzole
The deference given to veterans is insane. They signed up, did their job and got paid for it. Fine.
Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Coat Hanger] #2433659
12/14/15 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: VonMeister
Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Who said anything about surrendering? I just don't believe in indulging the islamic extemists by taking on the role of the judeo-christian half of the holy war they desire.

What's interesting to me about the numbers you posted are the numbers are notably higher in Palestine, a region where the muslims are being persecuted the most and you want to persecute more and expect that to fix things.


You really believe that not opening the borders of the US to anyone who wants to come here is a form of persecution? I guess there really is nothing left to talk about.


I believe that alienating a religion and saying "You can't come in but everyone else can" absolutely is persecution.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious belief

And no, I never said anything about opening borders. I believe we should be very discerning about who gets in. I just don't think there should be a blanket ban on an entire religion. Thats fundamentally un-American.

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: GDaddy] #2433665
12/14/15 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: GDaddy
You're welcome to say whatever you want about our foreign policy because as far as I'm concerned that has no bearing on our immigration policy. If you want to help those people then lets fund their resettlement over there, in societies with which they share far more common interests. It'll be cheaper and easier for us, and their odds for thriving will actually be far better.


The 10,000 refugees we're taking in is a token drop in the bucket compared to the numbers so many others are taking on. Turkey has taken in almost 2 million of them. More than they can handle to the point where 14% of them are living in refugee camps because theres not enough roofs to put over their heads. Lebanon's population increased 25% due to syrian refugees, 1.1 Million of them. Jordan has taken in 629,000, Iraq 249,000, Egypt 132,000, Germany 98,000, Hungary 18,800, Sweden 64,000, Denmark 11,300, etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/09/world/welcome-syrian-refugees-countries/

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433704
12/14/15 09:07 PM
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Don't care. Their interests are subordinate to our interests and are neither our fault nor our problem. Immigration is not a human right nor an entitlement that we owe to ANYONE.

I guarantee you that we excluded plenty of white people who were communists from emigrating here back to the Cold War, so you can spare me the pious "discrimination" card you're attempting to play, too. Like it or not, Islam is as much a political system for many of its adherents as it is a religion.


At least some members of Islam are literally at war with non-muslims in virtually every society where they exist in numbers. This demonstrates that we are not solely responsible or even primarily responsible for the level of conflict with them, and that their culture is the outlier; not everyone else's on the planet.

Tolerance is a 2-way street and can only be developed on the reciprocal basis. And sorrty, but too many muslims world-wide are not holding up their end of the deal for me to get excited about rolling the dice.

Probably 95% or more of the civilian casualties in Iraq were the result of muslims being violent with other muslims. That's on them regardless of the white guilt factor that people are so quick to assume.





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Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: frvcvs] #2433708
12/14/15 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Originally Posted By: VonMeister
Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Who said anything about surrendering? I just don't believe in indulging the islamic extemists by taking on the role of the judeo-christian half of the holy war they desire.

What's interesting to me about the numbers you posted are the numbers are notably higher in Palestine, a region where the muslims are being persecuted the most and you want to persecute more and expect that to fix things.


You really believe that not opening the borders of the US to anyone who wants to come here is a form of persecution? I guess there really is nothing left to talk about.


I believe that alienating a religion and saying "You can't come in but everyone else can" absolutely is persecution.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious belief

And no, I never said anything about opening borders. I believe we should be very discerning about who gets in. I just don't think there should be a blanket ban on an entire religion. Thats fundamentally un-American.


is it ok to say "you can't come in because you preach your asinine jihad BS on facebook and twitter"? Would it be ok for the gov to check social media accounts or would your pc sensibilities be adversely affected? (SAFESPACESAFESPACESAFESPACE!!!)

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: 23rdstMB] #2433709
12/14/15 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: 23rdstMB
Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Originally Posted By: VonMeister
Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Who said anything about surrendering? I just don't believe in indulging the islamic extemists by taking on the role of the judeo-christian half of the holy war they desire.

What's interesting to me about the numbers you posted are the numbers are notably higher in Palestine, a region where the muslims are being persecuted the most and you want to persecute more and expect that to fix things.


You really believe that not opening the borders of the US to anyone who wants to come here is a form of persecution? I guess there really is nothing left to talk about.


I believe that alienating a religion and saying "You can't come in but everyone else can" absolutely is persecution.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious belief

And no, I never said anything about opening borders. I believe we should be very discerning about who gets in. I just don't think there should be a blanket ban on an entire religion. Thats fundamentally un-American.


is it ok to say "you can't come in because you preach your asinine jihad BS on facebook and twitter"? Would it be ok for the gov to check social media accounts or would your pc sensibilities be adversely affected? (SAFESPACESAFESPACESAFESPACE!!!)


As I've said over and over again I'm all for increased scrutiny over individuals. I just don't believe in a blanket ban on a religion. For one there's no foolproof way of confirming with any certainty what an individual believes or doesn't believe and two it's fundamentally un-American.

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433710
12/14/15 09:22 PM
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"No foolproof way of identifying the supporters" is exactly the same rationale we used when we didn't import more Japanese and Germans during WWII, or more known communists from anywhere during the Cold War. So yeah, discriminating based on a person's politics absolutely is American. We've done it before and we'll do it again, and quite frankly it would be foolish not to do it.

You keep trivializing this conflict as something other than the war that these guys have repeatedly declared on us. It's just like the way you want to treat the combatants as criminals instead of soldiers. I didn't agree then and I don't agree now.

We've obviously *already* allowed in way too many supporters of islamic extremism into our country. I don't see doubling down on that on the basis of "we can't tell who is who" to be a solution.



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Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: frvcvs] #2433737
12/14/15 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Originally Posted By: 23rdstMB
Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Originally Posted By: VonMeister
Originally Posted By: frvcvs
Who said anything about surrendering? I just don't believe in indulging the islamic extemists by taking on the role of the judeo-christian half of the holy war they desire.

What's interesting to me about the numbers you posted are the numbers are notably higher in Palestine, a region where the muslims are being persecuted the most and you want to persecute more and expect that to fix things.


You really believe that not opening the borders of the US to anyone who wants to come here is a form of persecution? I guess there really is nothing left to talk about.


I believe that alienating a religion and saying "You can't come in but everyone else can" absolutely is persecution.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious belief

And no, I never said anything about opening borders. I believe we should be very discerning about who gets in. I just don't think there should be a blanket ban on an entire religion. Thats fundamentally un-American.


is it ok to say "you can't come in because you preach your asinine jihad BS on facebook and twitter"? Would it be ok for the gov to check social media accounts or would your pc sensibilities be adversely affected? (SAFESPACESAFESPACESAFESPACE!!!)


As I've said over and over again I'm all for increased scrutiny over individuals. I just don't believe in a blanket ban on a religion. For one there's no foolproof way of confirming with any certainty what an individual believes or doesn't believe and two it's fundamentally un-American.


unfortunately radical Islamists don't separate their religion from their politics. They are one in the same.

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: GDaddy] #2433785
12/15/15 12:03 AM
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At least some members of the pro-life movement will become terrorists as well. Your desires and reasonings regarding Muslims hold no sway.

Re: Trump Is A Racist Bully [Re: Gnudz] #2433791
12/15/15 12:29 AM
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IMO, the question of what to do with our domestic problems has little direct correlation to the decisions we make about importing more potential problems. So I don't find the moral equivalency argument to be very persuasive. We have some domestic Nazis, but I don't think that justifies importing more of those assholes just so we can call ourselves multi-cultural.

Whether or not our domestic pro-lifers already include an unacceptable number of violent extremists has no bearing on a decision we make about a worldwide population of 1B people where the *median* percentage by nation that supports extremism is estimated at 10%.

Maybe you think a 10% violent sympathizer median across the entire globe holds no sway over your opinions and that's fine by me. But AFAICT the extremist sympathizers are hostile to our way of life and some of them have declared war on us. I have no interest in engaging in compromises domestically in our own civil society to accomodate their sensitivities, or in consigning my heirs to do so.

I'm just along for the ride, same as everyone else. That my representatives may already be bought and paid for is what it is. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but the history, the facts and the stats belong to us all.


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