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#2892293 - 12/30/18 12:27 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: deforest]
ghostshaper Offline
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Registered: 01/22/05
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Originally Posted By: deforest



see any difference in rocker between the first pic and the second/third?

drunk
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#2892476 - 12/31/18 12:06 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: Goodfish]
Oeste858 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/17
Posts: 153
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Goodfish

I've got an SP2 (same outline, different rocker than the Cymatic) and a Hydrosquash. I like the SP2 in shoulder and under when the conditions are clean. If it's bigger or choppier, then I take out the Hydrosquash. Both my boards are in XTR. A guy I know who surfs the same reef as me has snapped 3 Firewire Cymatics in a row on their first session. Not even in big conditions - about shoulder-high.

Goodfish- So, how do you like the HydroSquash in those bigger/choppier conditions?
I think I'm more inclined to try roll the dice on the OB1 over that one. I really like the Cymatic and I want to believe them that the OB1 is the same board for XTR, besides the tail. I do wish the vague model descriptions on XTR were a bit more useful- most don't even mention rocker.

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#2892626 - 12/31/18 02:35 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: VaB]
deforest Offline
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Registered: 11/01/16
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Loc: California
The XTR Japan website has some very detailed information on the XTR Models. The OB1 looks pretty freakin good on there! Im having second thoughts about ordering one after looking at the website.

Here is the link but you will need to pull it up on chrome or a browser that has a translator.
https://www.xtrsurfboards-japan.com/Tomo_Boards_OB1.html






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#2892628 - 12/31/18 02:36 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: VaB]
deforest Offline
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Registered: 11/01/16
Posts: 566
Loc: California
Parallel Carbon looks clean!!!!


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#2892630 - 12/31/18 02:44 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: ghostshaper]
deforest Offline
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Registered: 11/01/16
Posts: 566
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: ghostshaper
Originally Posted By: deforest


see any difference in rocker between the first pic and the second/third?
drunk
Its just for visual reference. I could measure the rockers as you suggested and tell you numerically the difference in the rockers, but it wouldnt make much sense to you. Photographing the boards this way give you an easy visual comparison of the two (2) boards. The angle of the camera does make a difference, but I tried to take the picture from an angle that best showcases the difference in boards.

It would take a lot of time and effort to put each board on a table, get out a level, and measure each board as you suggested. Plus, I still dont think it would give you the same comparison as it does with them laying next to each other... but I will give that a try. I am going to try shaping my own board soon, so I'll be measuring some of my favorite boards.

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#2892682 - 12/31/18 05:26 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: deforest]
Oeste858 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/17
Posts: 153
Loc: San Diego, CA
I know it looks obvious to the naked eye, but I think Ghostshaper's point was:
presumably, the boards want to balance on their widest/thickest point, so unless the designs are exactly the same in this respect, this side-by-side rocker comparison photo may not actually be that accurate... despite what your eyes tell you. I would think you'd have to measure the rocker from the same distance from the tail on each board to compare apples to apples.

Anyway, I will check out that XTR Japan site. thanks. Not a fan of how the parallel carbon (or the other high-density foam stringer) looks... too busy for me. I'll probably stick to plain stringerless for a small board (< 5'6") or stringered for a bigger one.

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#2892715 - 12/31/18 08:42 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: Oeste858]
need 4 speed Online   content
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deforest

I think GS was trying to get you to do it like this, to get some real numbers
not too hard to do but you do need kind of a long straight edge. this is 2" tail
4 1/2" nose

good luck with your shaping
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#2892765 - 01/01/19 01:55 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: VaB]
deforest Offline
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Registered: 11/01/16
Posts: 566
Loc: California
I get what you guys are saying. But if I set these two board down in a pond of still water, they will most likely sit the same way as they are on the carpet as they would in the water. This will be there natural resting place. Because like you said Oeste858 the board wants to balance itself out.

I think measuring the rocker with the board upside down is only so you can get the measurements. I dont think its that helpful in trying to visualize how the board is going to sit in the water.

If you were to test these boards and pull them through the water (hook a string to the nose and pull them with a mini remote control boat) they will most likely start planing once they reach a certain speed. Thats when the rocker comes into play because you can push down the tail and turn. More tail rocker the sharper the turn. Less tail rocker more stable the turn.

At least thats the way I understand it??

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#2892779 - 01/01/19 03:19 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: Oeste858]
Goodfish Offline
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Registered: 02/22/14
Posts: 1202
Originally Posted By: Oeste858
Originally Posted By: Goodfish

I've got an SP2 (same outline, different rocker than the Cymatic) and a Hydrosquash. I like the SP2 in shoulder and under when the conditions are clean. If it's bigger or choppier, then I take out the Hydrosquash. Both my boards are in XTR. A guy I know who surfs the same reef as me has snapped 3 Firewire Cymatics in a row on their first session. Not even in big conditions - about shoulder-high.

Goodfish- So, how do you like the HydroSquash in those bigger/choppier conditions?
I think I'm more inclined to try roll the dice on the OB1 over that one. I really like the Cymatic and I want to believe them that the OB1 is the same board for XTR, besides the tail. I do wish the vague model descriptions on XTR were a bit more useful- most don't even mention rocker.


Yeah, the Hydrosquash is perfect for those conditions. The spot I surf in the winter usually has a bit of chop on the face and the best ones have a double-up bump that needs to be cut through. Last year I struggled with my 5'5 Vader there cos I really felt I needed a bit more length to deal with the conditions. I got the Hydrosquash specifically for surfing at this winter spot as at 5'9 its got enough length to cut through the chop, and its still got all the mad MPH responsiveness. I'd really recommend it.

OB1 looks fun enough, but it's not really singing to me. Vader tail plus EVO nose is kinda meh to me.
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#2892781 - 01/01/19 03:24 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: ghostshaper]
Mr J Offline
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Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: ghostshaper


As for measuring rocker:
1) balance your board on something at the midpoint deck facing down;
2) Put a rocker stick (any straight edge), using a bubble level at the midpoint on the bottom;
3) measure your rocker using a separate ruler.

But still post some pics, please.


I don't understand the role of the spirit level. How would that help place the rocker stick on the mid point of the board? What am I missing.

My method described here https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2859493#Post2859493 looks similar to N4S's no need for spirit level, just wedge something until the rocker bar is at a tangent to mid point. Bill Barnfield described on swayhlocks how he presses down over his rocker bar on the mid point to form the tangent. I use my eyeball. Bill Barnfield's method seems to need an extra pair of hands, so that's why I use something to wedge one end of the stick rather than apply pressure with my hand.

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#2892785 - 01/01/19 03:39 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: deforest]
Mr J Offline
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Registered: 08/18/03
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Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: deforest
..I think measuring the rocker with the board upside down is only so you can get the measurements. I dont think its that helpful in trying to visualize how the board is going to sit in the water.

If you were to test these boards and pull them through the water (hook a string to the nose and pull them with a mini remote control boat) they will most likely start planing once they reach a certain speed. Thats when the rocker comes into play because you can push down the tail and turn. More tail rocker the sharper the turn. Less tail rocker more stable the turn.

At least thats the way I understand it??



Yeah look that's fine if it helps you get a feel for the rocker that way. You are also correct regarding tail rocker and its role in turning. This is one of the reasons why some people who describe themselves as front foot surfers feel a generous amount of tail rocker works for them - the extra length of rail in the water from a front weighted turn tends to make the board go into a track, so adding some tail rocker makes the board turn more easily with the extra length of rail in the water.


However, regarding your first paragraph about how all the stick can do is produce a number, well that's the whole point. When hand shapers write down numbers in their little log book, they can go back objectively over the years and refer to say 2 1/2" of rocker on a 6' board and say deliberately produce something of lower rocker by aiming for 2 1/4". Whereas referring to their memory of how it sat on the floor or photographs taken at different angles is not going to be very objective.

When computer shaping, the designer relies even more on numbers - they can't see the full size board in front of them and the numbers mean everything. Myself I don't have a good eye, for curves so the numbers are my best guide. See how I used the numbers to demonstrate that the Chilli Mini Bird is actually a moderately rockered board and not flat rockered as some might think when looking at it (due to its very short length) on the link in my post to Ghostshaper.

Some handshapers don't use a stick much, if at all. Instead they get to know the blanks they order and adjust with say different amounts of planer cuts off the tail. However, knowing what blank is inside is useless for assessing the rocker on a finished product of a machine cut board and that's where we need a stick. Or better still a scan and import into a computer, but most of us don't have access to scanning equipment.

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#2893118 - 01/02/19 11:17 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: Mr J]
sushipop Offline
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Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 638
Loc: The Dagobah System
Ran across this and made me think of this thread:

Mitsven Rocker Measuring

Someone embed if you can.
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#2893502 - 01/03/19 12:58 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: sushipop]
deforest Offline
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Registered: 11/01/16
Posts: 566
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: sushipop
Ran across this and made me think of this thread:

Mitsven Rocker Measuring

Someone embed if you can.
This is rad! Thanks Sushipop! I'm gonna build one of those.

Originally Posted By: need 4 speed


deforest

I think GS was trying to get you to do it like this, to get some real numbers
not too hard to do but you do need kind of a long straight edge. this is 2" tail
4 1/2" nose

good luck with your shaping
Thanks N4S. Is that a Cymatic in your photo?? Looks like a Tomo shape!

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#2893523 - 01/03/19 01:48 PM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: deforest]
need 4 speed Online   content
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Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 4354
Loc: SoCal
a double ender, I pulled from shap3d open source, I'm working on (w/ ghostshaper holding my hand)
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#2893751 - 01/04/19 06:50 AM Re: Tomo MPH [Re: deforest]
Mr J Offline
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Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Deforest, check out the pic of Bob Cooper at the bottom of this link http://www.surfresearch.com.au/agr.html
In the early 90s I remember ordering a custom board and staring at such a device hanging on the wall. When the shaper saw me looking at it I got quickly steered out of the shaping room laugh Nowadays the attitude has changed and some shapers are even offering shaping lessons as part of their services. Also note at the end of that article that measuring rocker has been the source of confusion for a long time now.

I think pro shaper oakfoils who posts here measures rocker in a similar manner to what you have been doing i.e. puts his shapes on their belly on a flat surface, but before the glassing so the weight of the fin boxes doesn't influence it. It obviously means something to him, but not useful for say comparing a Tomo with a HPSB of different lengths.

Thanks to jkb we do know something about how that example compares. I think his board is an MPH. He has measured in the more usually accepted convention. When whisperer and myself fed the numbers into shape3d and scaled up we got 3.98" and tail rocker of 1.78". Rocker is what I would call on the low end of moderate, more HP than a fish.

https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2730107#Post2730107

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