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Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: Greg Griffin] #2974800
06/30/19 03:59 PM
06/30/19 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg Griffin
I have something that will make any board more exciting = fun to ride

For every builders board and ehancing every customers surfing experience .

I have had this for a very long time and the tech of today would make it very easy to make and alter .

None of those I worked for were trust worthy to share it with .

It would be Very Expensive to protect world wide - its REAL and will be taken since it works so well . No Pros needed .

Way more dynamic than a fin plug or dents in the deck :-)

I may never try to release it since I feel this industry will just take it .


Sounds kinda bitter and selfish.

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974803
06/30/19 04:07 PM
06/30/19 04:07 PM
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Sounds kinda bitter and selfish.

How so ?

I have something that everyone will enjoy - that possibly makes it impossible to protect .

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974811
06/30/19 04:27 PM
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can u patent a fin template?

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: 000] #2974820
06/30/19 04:42 PM
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You could if you really can explain its design and your originality , use of it .

I have seen no one do this ;-)

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: drewtang] #2974845
06/30/19 05:43 PM
06/30/19 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by drewtang
Not a big Fu to the rest of the industry at all. It's a way to protect the innovative intellectual property. Whether some armchair Monday morning quarterback feels like the intellectual property is unique or not doesn't matter either. It's up to the guy putting in the extra mile in order to protect his ip whether or not to take the gamble. Might not pay off, probably won't, statistically, but you never know if you don't put in the hustle. If he wins his patent then he can protect his design, doesn't take much imagination to guess why that's more important in the current state of the industry than ever.

Simon didn't patent the thruster design. It stinks that he doesn't get paid for his innovation
Who wouldn't like to know that one of the greatest design breakthrough in our sport made him financially well off...for generations. But that story didn't play out like that. This is common knowledge. Maybe if you feel so strongly about this, and you've had a great thruster (or 2) you should send him some money? I'm sure he would be easy to find if you have a check for him.


You haven't convinced me.

Basically you're saying that whoever applies for a patent deserves it because they're the one's who put in the time and the money to do it........even if they weren't the innovator who came up with the idea. That's a big FU to the industry. This kind of thinking gives the advantage to anyone in the industry with deep pockets and it pushes the little guy out because eventually, when everyone starts racing to patenting design features, the companies with the most money wins.

As for the Simon thruster design, it would be up to the designer/shaper to pay to use such a design (had SA patented it). Not the end user. But you already know this. If the designer doesn't want to pay, then come up with an original fin cluster design........and do so for outline, rocker, concaves, rail shape, and tail shape as well. See how this is a slippery slope?


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Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974846
06/30/19 06:06 PM
06/30/19 06:06 PM
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Quote

The myth of the lone inventor. It’s easier to worship a hero if they are portrayed as superhuman. But even people worthy of the title genius or prodigy like Mozart, Picasso and Einstein had family and teachers who taught them. Many of Edison’s patents are shared with co-workers, as despite his huge ego he knew collaboration was critical (His Menlo Park office was one of the first research labs). Stories of mad geniuses who worked completely alone are rare. Pick any master who you think worked alone and read some of their history: you’ll be surprised how many people influenced their work. Learning to collaborate, and give and receive feedback, may matter more than your brilliance.


https://scottberkun.com/2013/ten-myths-of-innnovation/

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974928
06/30/19 11:05 PM
06/30/19 11:05 PM
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All due respect, but you got me completely wrong. I'll try again though. In this particular instance the designer feels that he has unique IP worth protection. He has every right to patent his design for sure. You guys are citing prior art such as thumb channels which have definitely been done, in fact my very first board I shaped in 1993 had grab rails, copied from a Natural Art, actually most guys in FL were doing them at that time. Anyways Dane feels he has something unique in how he builds these, enough to protect it. Well played in my opinion. But that's how opinions work. It's really only up to his legal team and the USPTO whether or not that's unique enough. Not any of us.

As far as patents protecting just the rich, that's bogus too. I borrowed and begged for mine. I didn't have the scratch but I hustled it. Happens that way all the time, watch a few episodes of shark tank.

As far as the beat down thruster issue...who has really stepped up besides Biolos? Maybe I didn't hear of anybody else? I don't know. But I do know that most guys are struggling to make enough profit just on a surfboard business alone. Honestly most I know of are either closing up shop or on the edge of that. How could any of us afford to pay extra where we don't actually owe anything? That's just as silly as the end user paying. Admirable, yes. Reasonable, no. There's just no money in surfboards, period. I would go so far as to ask how many people have purchased boards at a bro deal, way below retail, or cut a retailer out of the sale, or how many backyarders are undercutting the whole system in order to stake a little claim in the game? (I'm guilty) These issues are WAY more damaging to a struggling industry than some guy pushing his innovation.

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974942
06/30/19 11:55 PM
06/30/19 11:55 PM
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Seems like there are a few things being discussed:
* Surfboard design patents, in general
* What's right vs. what's reality
* Surfboard industry, shapers vs lawyers
* Dane being a bad person

Re: Design patents, in general, my 2c = if you're not protecting your IP, and you have IP, then you're not doing a good job. Surfboard shaping, or any industry. If your success relies on delivering a specific design to consumers, and those designs are in the public domain, how do you have any expectation that other designers are going to pay you to use your design? How would that process work? Donations?


Originally Posted by jkb
Originally Posted by SixtyGrit
But I completely disagree with your general stance. Like, design patents = bad whereas tech/materials patents = good.


This statement refers to my stance, not Deforest's.

I'm curious why you disagree?

I'm not opposed to changing my mind, but I haven't heard a compelling argument yet on how a surfboard design patent isn't basically a big fvck you to the rest of the industry.

Crotchgrab's statement in an earlier post captured the sentiment perfectly, which was in essence.......are you sending any royalties to SA every time you use his thruster idea?

Patenting a design feature while simultaneously using design features developed by shapers before you without giving them a royalty seems wrong to me.

If things continue down this road, I feel like it will turn into a litigious industry rather than a surf industry. Lawyers will be making more money off of surfboards than shapers will.


Side note on SA:
Here's a quote directly from him back in 2010 (https://www.kpbs.org/news/2010/aug/12/how-did-thruster-change-surfing/)
________________________
CAVANAUGH: Now, Simon, I want to get back to the story of the Thruster because there’s a part of it that is almost as remarkable as the design that you came up with, and that is the fact you never patented it, you just let it out there, let anybody make a design, a thrust – another board like that with that stable tri-fin that you developed. Did you think about maybe, you know, oh, this is a great invention of mine. I maybe want to patent that and make sure that I get all the royalties from that?

ANDERSON: Yes, definitely I thought about that long and hard and I talked to people who advised me that I could patent it, and I talked to people who said that I couldn’t. And at the end of the day, I had – The world tour was coming up, I had the next contest to go to. I didn’t want to be in a courtroom trying to enforce a patent on something. It hadn’t really been done in our industry before. So it was kind of two hard basket and the demands of my profession kind of caught up with me. So, bad luck, there goes another fortune slips – slipped through the fingers.

CAVANAUGH: But, indeed, I mean, Jim, we’re talking about what, indeed, could have been a fortune.

KEMPTON: Yeah, I think Simon’s being a very – very cordial here in his response. Actually it was an extremely generous thing to allow the rest of the world to go with that because there were innovations made over the last – next two decades to his design that did different things and expanded different ways that probably would not have been as successful in terms of the average surfer if he had done that, although it would have made him a lot more money. So I think there’s a lot of credit due to the fact that he allowed everyone to benefit from this. You know, Jonas Salk didn’t ask anything when he discovered the polio vaccine and I use that example all the time with people that are saying, well, the drug companies won’t do anything unless you – they can make a million dollars. And I say, well, lots of people do. You know, when it’s a great thing they’ve done and they let the world in on it, that’s what really, you know, people remember.
__________________________

Notice the comparison to Jonas Salk. Not quite equivalent.

Anyways, I don't think IP is a slippery slope here. If shapers can bring design down to a level of precision and objectivity that they can develop and enforce hull design IP, I think we'll all be better off, because consumers will have some real objective data and baseline models so they can actually buy models that fit their skill and expectations, rather than relying on trends and marketing. Another nice reality for consumers is that all these designs must be sold at a price competitive with a backyard shaper's cost of materials + labor:

The diffusion of innovation and technology is so fast, and the accessibility of CNC / manufacturing so high, that they would be effectively unenforceable at small scales. It's like trying to make me pay for using MP3 tech in the 90's. However, if I want to start a company offering 2-deck channel ripple designs to the masses (which makes boards more durable, which would probably reduce my profitability, but I digress...), I better be prepared to pay royalties or legal fees. There may be an IP grab by large shaping companies, but by no means will it lead to stifling innovation, garage shaping, or increased prices to the consumer (mostly because anyone can shape anything they want). Surfboard design iteration and innovation is so fast and relatively cheap nowadays due to shaping programs.

The subjectivity of surfboard rides makes it all a big fashion trend / art, rather than an objective science. On what grounds are you going to patent a hull design that yields a certain ride, and in how long will the value of that patent be diminished by the latest ride preference of the consumer? Without objective data on the characteristic of the ride, it's literally your word vs someone else's about whose is better, and by how much, and in what ways.

If a shaper finds a design so fundamentally valuable and unique that they can patent it, and everyone else wants to use it, they should be paid handsomely. However, there's a pretty fundamental limit to what prices the market will bear in surfboards... at some point, people will start using that design in their garages, and go around the price-gouging patent nerd, and the value of the patent is again, diminished. Otherwise, they maximize the design, and deliver what the surfers want at a huge scale - consumers win.

If surfboard companies want to start a big design IP land grab, they will start merging into larger shaping organizations to centralize IP, which will just restructure the whole industry. That's probably where late-stage capitalism will take this whole thing anyway. Designs are converging on the same variations already, and the rest is fashion/trends.

Re: Dane being a bad person - I've heard deforest and barry snyder say so indirectly, but it sounds like a bunch of hearsay, and no actual claims made. Is he an ACTUAL thief? Did he fvck someone's ACTUAL wife? Or is this a case of some shapers (respected luddite craftsmen) who are angry with where he is taking shaping? What is actually happening here? Should I ask for my money back on the glassing job because he's a bad person, and take it down the road?

I'm just a dumb surfer, so please tell me where I'm mistaken. Seriously.

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974961
07/01/19 12:33 AM
07/01/19 12:33 AM
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mundus thinks I'm grumpy and jaded by stating why I haven't made what I have .

Basically it would be taken quickly because it enhances all boards .

And I can make endless variations .

Thats a kinda big market with no need for pro endorsement .

Unless it was well patented world wide and enforced , FCS did pretty well .

Frustrating Yes , pissed No :-)

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2974969
07/01/19 12:53 AM
07/01/19 12:53 AM
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Dude, GG, patent it! Also, I want to surf on whatever it is. For money.

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2975018
07/01/19 10:13 AM
07/01/19 10:13 AM
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I have so many experiences I can share with mundus

This is one

14 years ago

A large company run by 2 brothers wanted to work with me after I made boards for designer .

I mentioned us making this eventually when they were ready .

Then I partnered with someone else .

2 of my designs were made and sold with no mention of myself

I saw a copy of one by another company at Diamond head since they had marketed it .

My new wife and I visited the brother who is the designer of this company - great guy . The other brother is a "business guy" .

A team rider walked up and he introduced myself as the creator of his board .

On the side my wife asked , doesn't it bother people taking your stuff , I said thats the way it is .

Once its public knowledge its open for anyone to make .

This is what I was told 10 years earlier by the owner of a company I was working for willing to share it with .

And thats Reallity . Still friends and no grumpy :-)

Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: SixtyGrit] #2975241
07/01/19 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SixtyGrit
Anyways, I don't think IP is a slippery slope here. If shapers can bring design down to a level of precision and objectivity that they can develop and enforce hull design IP, I think we'll all be better off, because consumers will have some real objective data and baseline models so they can actually buy models that fit their skill and expectations, rather than relying on trends and marketing. Another nice reality for consumers is that all these designs must be sold at a price competitive with a backyard shaper's cost of materials + labor:

The diffusion of innovation and technology is so fast, and the accessibility of CNC / manufacturing so high, that they would be effectively unenforceable at small scales. It's like trying to make me pay for using MP3 tech in the 90's. However, if I want to start a company offering 2-deck channel ripple designs to the masses (which makes boards more durable, which would probably reduce my profitability, but I digress...), I better be prepared to pay royalties or legal fees. There may be an IP grab by large shaping companies, but by no means will it lead to stifling innovation, garage shaping, or increased prices to the consumer (mostly because anyone can shape anything they want). Surfboard design iteration and innovation is so fast and relatively cheap nowadays due to shaping programs.

The subjectivity of surfboard rides makes it all a big fashion trend / art, rather than an objective science. On what grounds are you going to patent a hull design that yields a certain ride, and in how long will the value of that patent be diminished by the latest ride preference of the consumer? Without objective data on the characteristic of the ride, it's literally your word vs someone else's about whose is better, and by how much, and in what ways.

If a shaper finds a design so fundamentally valuable and unique that they can patent it, and everyone else wants to use it, they should be paid handsomely. However, there's a pretty fundamental limit to what prices the market will bear in surfboards... at some point, people will start using that design in their garages, and go around the price-gouging patent nerd, and the value of the patent is again, diminished. Otherwise, they maximize the design, and deliver what the surfers want at a huge scale - consumers win.

If surfboard companies want to start a big design IP land grab, they will start merging into larger shaping organizations to centralize IP, which will just restructure the whole industry. That's probably where late-stage capitalism will take this whole thing anyway. Designs are converging on the same variations already, and the rest is fashion/trends.

Re: Dane being a bad person - I've heard deforest and barry snyder say so indirectly, but it sounds like a bunch of hearsay, and no actual claims made. Is he an ACTUAL thief? Did he fvck someone's ACTUAL wife? Or is this a case of some shapers (respected luddite craftsmen) who are angry with where he is taking shaping? What is actually happening here? Should I ask for my money back on the glassing job because he's a bad person, and take it down the road?

I'm just a dumb surfer, so please tell me where I'm mistaken. Seriously.


Thanks for taking the time to write this.

I agree with a lot of what you said and have modified my opinion some.

I think you're right when it comes to patenting IP if it's truly an original, innovative idea but I have a problem with patenting something that is essentially building on the ideas of people before you........which goes back to sd_101's quote.......which then makes me think such patents might be ok. I guess you can say I'm conflicted. confused2

This whole situation makes me think that if Firewire would have filed for this patent, would people have the same attitude towards it?

My intention of starting this post was never supposed to be about Dane per say. It was more about patenting surfboard design. To tell you the truth, I couldn't even tell you if Dane's patent is more of a design feature or a construction enhancement.......which as I've stated earlier, I don't have a problem with construction/materials patents because I think that's an area where someone can truly innovate and should be able to protect their IP.


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Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2976892
07/04/19 10:36 PM
07/04/19 10:36 PM
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This is funny:

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Re: What are your thoughts on patenting a surfboard design feature? [Re: jkb] #2976910
07/04/19 11:50 PM
07/04/19 11:50 PM
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love those channels/tail foil


NOT THAT KIND
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