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Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2881697
11/30/18 06:22 PM
11/30/18 06:22 PM
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Red X & Lok Box are still available. Just give Larry Block or me a shout.

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: tom@daumtooling] #2881755
11/30/18 08:11 PM
11/30/18 08:11 PM
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Tom,
I would love to get Red-x again, so f you have them lets do it. I've reached out to Block via email to no reply. I have the jigs, router, etc. Used to be my goto fin system for anything removeable. Pm on the way!

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: Greg Griffin] #2881880
12/01/18 04:41 AM
12/01/18 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
.Surfers learned that movement changes the ride a long time before FCS and Futures appeared , so it stayed .

FCS and Futures were able to erase that knowledge from multi fin users . Replacing that with buying many sets to Dial your board in , such an extreme change is why most don't know how Dialed in they could be .
Some movement will help find that , but there would be a loss in sales since this option may eliminate your need for a new set of fins .


My recollection of multi-fin history is different. Back in the 80s when MR's performance twin and Anderson's thruster first came out, there were some instances of placing them in adjustable boxes - I remember installing Mark Warren's twin fin set which came with the traditional drilled lug at the front, for installing in a small single fin style box. Then when positions became more well established glass on fins became the standard and this is what surfers seemed to want - we have two example posts on this thread who long for the "good old days" of glass ons.

I have only done it twice, but my memories of relocating glass on fins was that it was a laborious process involving grinding down the fin fillets. So we could say that FCS didn't start the trend for fixed fin positions, but their twin tab plug didn't do anything to encourage surfer adjustment.

Then FCS came out with the Fusion box which you pointed out had adjustment. So we could say they did more than Futures to allow surfer adjustment. However, the mass market did not adopt it and they were losing market share to Futures until they came out with the FCS II.

addendum: I am not saying that fixed position boxes and the heavily marketed fin retail industry is the ultimate way of owning a dialled in board. I think what you are doing is excellent. I am just giving my observations/impressions of the way the market has gone.

Last edited by Mr J; 12/01/18 04:46 AM. Reason: addendum.
Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: deforest] #2881890
12/01/18 05:57 AM
12/01/18 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: deforest
... What do you mean This is what we have been handed from an unregulated market. What sort of regulation would you have suggested?



I did not intend to imply that I thought the market should be regulated. I am no economist, but, if we do want to talk about regulation, 3 possible instruments I can think of would be import tarrifs, direct industry assistance and anti-dumping measures.


Anti dumping measures is all about placing import restrictions and retaliation against countries exporting goods at below cost. I am not sure anti dumping would help local industry, because I am not sure that it is happening, in fact industry pros such as Barry Snyder and Scott Anderson suggest that the opposite is happening - boards being produced very cheaply and sold with huge markup. Maybe a little happens with low end pu/pe, but I wouldn't know about that.

I am an Australian living in Aus, so don't have any emotional baggage about what the US should do, although I did enjoy my 7 year stay there and think its a great place. The list that Indodreams and myself compiled is I think similar for both US and Aus, so if you had to ask me about my opinion on Aus then there is tarrifs and direct industry assistance. Here is a little example of industry assistance https://www.swellnet.com/news/design-out...-fin-experiment - a university grant to develop fins. Again I don't think that sort of industry assistance to research projects would have any impact because as I stated nothing game changing is happening, Sure innovation is happening all the time in the surfboard industry, but its not game changing because the masses aren't adopting it. Bufo is reported on this thread to be making cork boards in Oceanside, but I haven't seen any. Plus it would do nothing for the local artisan who is not developing ground breaking technology.

As for just handing out money or tarrifs, Aus is a low protection country, so not going to happen, which arguably makes it a moot discussion. However if you were to ask my opinion on this, I am on the fence. All economists will say that protectionism is overall bad for the economy because it diverts production away from potentially more efficient industry into inefficient industry. However if it was as simple as that then every country would have no tarrifs and no assistance, but that isn't the case including Australia.

As a result of Aus's policy it has no car industry at all - used to have 6 manufacturers - now all gone. One of my new colleagues came from Bosch which supplied components to the local car industry - he lost his job there and the liberal economists would say that is a good thing because he is now in a growing industry. However he is young and well educated and many production line workers never got re-employed or are now in low paid part time jobs. I was unemployed for 6 months some 3 years ago and it is not very nice. On the other hand I drive an imported car so it would be hypocritical of me to criticise the govt policy - so yeah on the fence about this, no opinions.


PS I think your analogies with the car industry are quite reasonable.

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: Mr J] #2881911
12/01/18 12:45 PM
12/01/18 12:45 PM
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Short story

Most long boarders will not want a unmovable fin . Shortboard riders don't understand .

FCS lost ground to Futures after years of not being industry friendly -

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: Greg Griffin] #2882158
12/02/18 02:51 AM
12/02/18 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Short story

Most long boarders will not want a unmovable fin . Shortboard riders don't understand .

FCS lost ground to Futures after years of not being industry friendly -



yes, I already noted on this thread that the adjustable single fin box seems to be the accepted standard in longboards.

You are an industry pro, so would know about industry hassles with FCS.

For thrusters getting the fins right or at least more than adequately placed/sized isn't too bad, but I would imagine that if you handed one of your 5 fin designs to a customer with empty boxes it would take them forever and small fortune in fins to dial it in.

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: Mr J] #2882161
12/02/18 03:57 AM
12/02/18 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mr J
[quote=Greg Griffin]
For thrusters getting the fins right or at least more than adequately placed/sized isn't too bad, but I would imagine that if you handed one of your 5 fin designs to a customer with empty boxes it would take them forever and small fortune in fins to dial it in.


Yep thats the thing adjustable fin boxes are fine when dealing with just one fin, or great for surfers right into tweaking and fine tuning things. (and personally i think those types of systems would be fun to play with)

But for the average surfer it's a step to far, it just creates to many options.

For most FCS and Futures etc give some flexibility in being able to change fins but not start getting into too many variables.

Sometimes actually being limited in options is actually a good thing.

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: indodreams] #2882199
12/02/18 12:19 PM
12/02/18 12:19 PM
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None of these systems have fins that can be used for my 5 fin

That takes care of that :-)

My fin combinations and placements were made before them as well .

None of them matches mine yet .

Slight movement of these "Dialed" fins and placements will make the board as "Squirly" or drivey as you should want .


Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: casa_mugrienta] #2882205
12/02/18 01:58 PM
12/02/18 01:58 PM
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Fin placement has 4 degrees of freedom
Front to back
Side to side
Rotation about base (tilt)
Rotation about height (toe)


Fcs lets you alter 3 of these (and slightly side to side if the tabs are thin enough) after the board is finished

For example
Board tracks backside: piece of tape on the front tab for more toe
Board doesnt go on rail: thin slice of tape for more tilt

This is hugely beneficial and can take a board from dull to good

Re: Can we talk about the price per unit of overseas manufactured surfboards? [Re: indodreams] #2882464
12/03/18 08:36 AM
12/03/18 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: indodreams
...

Yep thats the thing adjustable fin boxes are fine when dealing with just one fin, or great for surfers right into tweaking and fine tuning things. (and personally i think those types of systems would be fun to play with)

But for the average surfer it's a step to far, it just creates to many options.

For most FCS and Futures etc give some flexibility in being able to change fins but not start getting into too many variables.

Sometimes actually being limited in options is actually a good thing.


Some anecdotes - my best mate and his brother are both very competent surfers who surf up to 5 times a week. The brother who lives in NZ visited and borrowed a quad fin shortboard from my mate who didn't get on with it due to being too short a board for him. The brother mildly complained that it felt a "bit soft in turns" I wasn't sure what he meant so decided to examine the fin setup with a tape measure. It was fitted with with FCS II boxes. In the front were the rakey "accelerator" template with the FCS II base, in the rear were jammed some old glass flex quad trailers twin tab base. Twin tabs will fit in the FCS II box with some adjustment, although entirely in the forward range. The most rearward position in the box will line up the trailing edge with the shapers dot. These were right forward putting the trailing edge something like 1 cm forward of where they should be - this would of course result in a rather squirrely board lacking drive. I moved them all the way back and the feedback was "much better".

Anecdote number 2 - same mate has a Webber quad fin with the FCS fusion boxes, he has never ever played with the little adjustment that they offer - the adjustment is sufficiently limited such that it is hard to go far wrong them. He likes this board.

Not everyone has the knowledge or interest to tune multi fin positions. I am reliably told by industry professional Josh Dowling who has worked for some big names in the industry that some world tour level pros are unable to offer suggestions on fin angles and how they want the rear edges in the board tuned - but will insist that the footwell/dents in the deck are really important! So being good at tuning a board is not necessarily related to how good someone is at surfing.

On to your point as fun to tweak for those who are inclined. Yes I've done this and like jkb who posted on this subject on this thread learned something from it. I've done most of my experimenting with lokboxes - the problem with the fusion box is that the twin tabs come with a little screw dent to lock them in, so what tends to happen is that the tabs only want to sit in one place anyway. I suppose I could have grinded a slot in them, but I didn't. What I found is that to get any objective impression of what say 1/8" of movement does is that it has to be done during the same session. To move the fin then see how it goes the next day is just confusing. Getting out of the water to move a fin is distracting and time consuming. I used to place a screw driver on the roof of my car during my adjustment experiment sessions (lokboxes are adjusted via this tool).

Fins on the other hand sometimes vary sufficiently that the difference is very noticeable from one session to another.

I've had the 4 way system in a step up, but the problem with this sort of board is that it doesn't get used so much and getting out of the water to fiddle with boxes in step up conditions is not something we want to distract ourselves with.

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