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So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then?

Posted By: hal9000

So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:20 AM

All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?
Posted By: BillyOcean

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:23 AM

The wall is just one piece of the puzzle

You also need to deport people, punish employers of illegals and banks who launder drug money
Posted By: GDaddy

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:25 AM

Strawman
Posted By: hal9000

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:38 AM

Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
The wall is just one piece of the puzzle

You also need to deport people, punish employers of illegals and banks who launder drug money



But would you argue that we can eliminate crime 100%, or anything else for that matter?

Don't you have to, at some point, realize that crime will always exist and is just part of the "cost of doing business", just like gun violence?
Posted By: BillyOcean

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:47 AM

Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
The wall is just one piece of the puzzle

You also need to deport people, punish employers of illegals and banks who launder drug money



But would you argue that we can eliminate crime 100%, or anything else for that matter?

Don't you have to, at some point, realize that crime will always exist and is just part of the "cost of doing business", just like gun violence?


Sure

I just want someone to do a bitchin guitar solo on top of the wall
Posted By: hal9000

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?
Posted By: ElOgro

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 12:59 AM

Originally Posted By: hal9000
All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?


Start 10 new threads a day.
Posted By: RWVBWL

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 01:19 AM

So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then?

Duh!
Donnie INVADES Mexico.
Right?


PS ~ You forgot to add terrorists to your list...
wave2
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 01:51 AM

Originally Posted By: hal9000
All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?


Read up on how President Eisenhower dealt with illegal immigrants. Trump should do the same thing.
Posted By: stu dog

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 01:55 AM

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-he...ory?id=60272294

screw hurricane, fire, natural disaster victims and build a wall. What an asshole
Posted By: oneula

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 02:04 AM

my brudda brudda from anudda mudda

Posted By: 1whoknows

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: hal9000
All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?


Read up on how President Eisenhower dealt with illegal immigrants. Trump should do the same thing.


Did Eisenhower hire them? That’s what trump does.
Posted By: GDaddy

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?

There's better and then there's worse. I don't think there are many wall advocates who actually think that having a wall would be a silver bullet but most all of them think it will be better than not having a wall.
Posted By: 1whoknows

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 04:55 AM

Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?

There's better and then there's worse. I don't think there are many wall advocates who actually think that having a wall would be a silver bullet but most all of them think it will be better than not having a wall.

Border Lying Personality Disorder
Posted By: GDaddy

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 04:59 AM

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Trump had his opportunity 2 years ago and he failed to follow through.
Posted By: heelnipstr

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?

There's better and then there's worse. I don't think there are many wall advocates who actually think that having a wall would be a silver bullet but most all of them think it will be better than not having a wall.



so is this better worth $67 Billion plus? Not counting all the legal issues of seizing private land.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/...m=.39cd55434757
Posted By: GDaddy

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 05:37 AM


Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?

There's better and then there's worse. I don't think there are many wall advocates who actually think that having a wall would be a silver bullet but most all of them think it will be better than not having a wall.



so is this better worth $67 Billion plus? Not counting all the legal issues of seizing private land.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/...m=.39cd55434757


Apparently there are a lot of Americans who think it would be worth it.
Posted By: heelnipstr

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By: GDaddy

Originally Posted By: heelnipstr
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?

There's better and then there's worse. I don't think there are many wall advocates who actually think that having a wall would be a silver bullet but most all of them think it will be better than not having a wall.



so is this better worth $67 Billion plus? Not counting all the legal issues of seizing private land.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/...m=.39cd55434757


Apparently there are a lot of Americans who think it would be worth it.


36% is a lot?

but 70% support universal healthcare what would you call that.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/11/675334306...ssible-shutdown

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-ame...ge-tuition.html
Posted By: hammies

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 06:48 AM

Build a moat! Oh, we already have those. Even though they're really big, people and contraband still get in easily enough.

Maybe we need a roof, since so many illegal aliens and narcotics come in via plane!
Posted By: GDaddy

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 07:21 AM

Quote:


36% is over 100M people.

As for Medicare for all, 2020 isn't very far off. Maybe it'll happen. All you guys gotta do is win.
Posted By: craigj532

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 07:58 AM

“If we don’t make a deal with Congress, which we should be able to. Really just common sense and there is some compromise needed and, look, they know that the wall is working. Do you know what works? A wheel. And a wall. They call it a medieval thing. Well, you know, I’m looking at all these very expensive cars all over here loaded up with machine guns and every single one of them has wheels. A wheel is an old thing. There are two things that they work. A wall would be so effective. It would solve so many killings and so much death and drugs and human trafficking. Where they tape up women on their face. They tape them up and put them in the back of a car or a van and they drive right through our border.”

Stable genius.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: 1whoknows
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: hal9000
All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?


Read up on how President Eisenhower dealt with illegal immigrants. Trump should do the same thing.


Did Eisenhower hire them? That’s what trump does.


No. He rounded them up and put them on planes and ships and dropped them off 500 miles into Mexico. Also worth noting that Mexico helped too.
Posted By: oneula

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 01:11 PM

like cuzin Joe Wong (whoDat) so eloquently said

in the end what did the greal wall do for china other than become a tourist attraction thousands of years later
and I don't think that other wall in Berlin did too well in the end

Great walls end up being nothing but phallic symbols for those that build them

its like the software and procedural walls used to protect customers from malware, and viruses they end up being temporary fixes. No matter high high and how good they are in the beginning, they are only of temporary value.

you have to change basic human behavior, fix the source and get rid of the incentives to make a permanent impact.
Posted By: 1whoknows

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: oneula
like cuzin Joe Wong (whoDat) so eloquently said

in the end what did the greal wall do for china other than become a tourist attraction thousands of years later
and I don't think that other wall in Berlin did too well in the end

Great walls end up being nothing but phallic symbols for those that build them

its like the software and procedural walls used to protect customers from malware, and viruses they end up being temporary fixes. No matter high high and how good they are in the beginning, they are only of temporary value.

you have to change basic human behavior, fix the source and get rid of the incentives to make a permanent impact.


The voice of reason. Thank you.
Posted By: 1whoknows

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: 1whoknows
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: hal9000
All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?


Read up on how President Eisenhower dealt with illegal immigrants. Trump should do the same thing.


Did Eisenhower hire them? That’s what trump does.


No. He rounded them up and put them on planes and ships and dropped them off 500 miles into Mexico. Also worth noting that Mexico helped too.
A lot has changed since then. I doubt that Eisenhower employed undocumented workers from Mexico and Central America. “Rounding them up and shipping them off” wouldn’t work, will never happen, would be incompatible with our economy. You’re mindset when it comes to illegal workers is going to have to change. They’re a net positive for our economy and our society. I realize that’s almost impossible for you to comprehend. They’re a beneficial part of an economic system. You could argue they’re being exploited, I would agree. We have to figure out how to make them legal.
Posted By: hal9000

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Originally Posted By: hal9000
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
Strawman



Not at all. Especially if you factor in the policy aspect. What policy objective will this accomplish?

There's better and then there's worse. I don't think there are many wall advocates who actually think that having a wall would be a silver bullet but most all of them think it will be better than not having a wall.




https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-...er-wall-n956271

Trump's own administration have admitted that there is no crisis at the border.
Posted By: ElOgro

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: oneula
like cuzin Joe Wong (whoDat) so eloquently said

in the end what did the greal wall do for china other than become a tourist attraction thousands of years later
and I don't think that other wall in Berlin did too well in the end

Great walls end up being nothing but phallic symbols for those that build them

its like the software and procedural walls used to protect customers from malware, and viruses they end up being temporary fixes. No matter high high and how good they are in the beginning, they are only of temporary value.

you have to change basic human behavior, fix the source and get rid of the incentives to make a permanent impact.




Good luck changing basic human behavior, at least here in Mexico. If it can be corrupted, it’s been corrupted. At all levels. lol into the “huachicolero” deal that’s happening here right now as an example. The political machine and the associated organized crime that you grew up with on Oahu is a minuscule example. Here it’s institutional. Womb to tomb.
Posted By: StuAzole

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 05:38 PM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: 1whoknows
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: hal9000
All of you know damn well we'll still have all of the aforementioned things, with or without a wall. What happens if the Wall is built and it fails to do what Trump says it will do?


Read up on how President Eisenhower dealt with illegal immigrants. Trump should do the same thing.


Did Eisenhower hire them? That’s what trump does.


No. He rounded them up and put them on planes and ships and dropped them off 500 miles into Mexico. Also worth noting that Mexico helped too.


Operation Wetback II?

And Mexico didn't help, they requested the program because they were losing too many workers to American farmers.
Posted By: oneula

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Originally Posted By: oneula
like cuzin Joe Wong (whoDat) so eloquently said

in the end what did the greal wall do for china other than become a tourist attraction thousands of years later
and I don't think that other wall in Berlin did too well in the end

Great walls end up being nothing but phallic symbols for those that build them

its like the software and procedural walls used to protect customers from malware, and viruses they end up being temporary fixes. No matter high high and how good they are in the beginning, they are only of temporary value.

you have to change basic human behavior, fix the source and get rid of the incentives to make a permanent impact.




Good luck changing basic human behavior, at least here in Mexico. If it can be corrupted, it’s been corrupted. At all levels. lol into the “huachicolero” deal that’s happening here right now as an example. The political machine and the associated organized crime that you grew up with on Oahu is a minuscule example. Here it’s institutional. Womb to tomb.



I don't think you can "fix" mexico

but then again the immigration issue is no longer a mexican problem but a central american problem. They just happen to be using mexico as their pathway. The US needs to "fix" the problem in south america. Maybe bring in the chinese like what's been happening in africa, the middle east and southeast asia with their "belt and road initiative". They don't need to run their US outsource operations in china which they've already over polluted because of it but they can outsource their outsource service to central america and exploit that labor market with their technology and construction resources like they are doing in africa.

If you can get rid of the economic and safety issues that have created the incentives for the current mass migration then it should taper off. I'm sure china or russia wants to get their hands on what ever natural resources central america has to offer. And both of those countries historically are pretty adept at controlling and getting rid of dissidents in their own countries. I'm sure they would have no problems helping governments with military support and arms to stabilize their regimes like the USA did with the Shah in Iran and with Saddam did in Iraq after Iran contra before cheney and the US oil boys want a piece of their pie.

There's also an underground theory that Canada, Mexico and the US should just become one big country like china and russia to take advantage of their geography to compete against china and russia. Lost of untapped oil lands in canada and lots of untapped labor in mexico. Just give the reigns to a trump or disfunctional congress and make canada and mexico another Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam and American Samoa. Hell Mexico and Canada could become the 51 and 52 states. You never know with all the uncontrolled corruption down south and ethic cross pollenization that has occurred between the cultures of the three countries over the centuries. People/culturally wise the borders are meaningless, it just created more government jobs. Less government is better, Lets just put it all under one rule.

Freakonomics on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGezXRu8u2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yRxXcefrPM&t=425s

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/china-eat-americas-jobs/
Posted By: StuAzole

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 05:43 PM

Compete with Russia in what?
Posted By: ElOgro

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: oneula
Originally Posted By: ElOgro
Originally Posted By: oneula
like cuzin Joe Wong (whoDat) so eloquently said

in the end what did the greal wall do for china other than become a tourist attraction thousands of years later
and I don't think that other wall in Berlin did too well in the end

Great walls end up being nothing but phallic symbols for those that build them

its like the software and procedural walls used to protect customers from malware, and viruses they end up being temporary fixes. No matter high high and how good they are in the beginning, they are only of temporary value.

you have to change basic human behavior, fix the source and get rid of the incentives to make a permanent impact.




Good luck changing basic human behavior, at least here in Mexico. If it can be corrupted, it’s been corrupted. At all levels. lol into the “huachicolero” deal that’s happening here right now as an example. The political machine and the associated organized crime that you grew up with on Oahu is a minuscule example. Here it’s institutional. Womb to tomb.



I don't think you can "fix" mexico

but then again the immigration issue is no longer a mexican problem but a central american problem. They just happen to be using mexico as their pathway. The US needs to "fix" the problem in south america. Maybe bring in the chinese like what's been happening in africa, the middle east and southeast asia with their "belt and road initiative". They don't need to run their US outsource operations in china which they've already over polluted because of it but they can outsource their outsource service to central america and exploit that labor market with their technology and construction resources like they are doing in africa.

If you can get rid of the economic and safety issues that have created the incentives for the current mass migration then it should taper off. I'm sure china or russia wants to get their hands on what ever natural resources central america has to offer. And both of those countries historically are pretty adept at controlling and getting rid of dissidents in their own countries. I'm sure they would have no problems helping governments with military support and arms to stabilize their regimes like the USA did with the Shah in Iran and with Saddam did in Iraq after Iran contra before cheney and the US oil boys want a piece of their pie.

There's also an underground theory that Canada, Mexico and the US should just become one big country like china and russia to take advantage of their geography to compete against china and russia. Lost of untapped oil lands in canada and lots of untapped labor in mexico. Just give the reigns to a trump or disfunctional congress and make canada and mexico another Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam and American Samoa. Hell Mexico and Canada could become the 51 and 52 states. You never know with all the uncontrolled corruption down south and ethic cross pollenization that has occurred between the cultures of the three countries over the centuries. People/culturally wise the borders are meaningless, it just created more government jobs. Less government is better, Lets just put it all under one rule.

Freakonomics on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGezXRu8u2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yRxXcefrPM&t=425s

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/china-eat-americas-jobs/


Why stop in the Western Hemisphere?

Who gets to call the shots?
Posted By: GDaddy

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/11/19 07:45 PM

^^^ Eggxactly. We really need to get away from the idea that we can "give" other nations democracy or the rule of law or social enlightenment or anything other than a trading partner and possibly a security alliance.
Posted By: Gnudz

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/12/19 12:12 AM

What the idiots who want this wall to keep immigrants out don't understand is that rather than keeping immigrants out, walls mostly keep immigrants from going back home after they've come here to work.

Before we built a bunch of walls in the 70's, 80's and especially the 90's, immigration was largely circular. Immigrants would come here to work and then go back home, often crossing back and forth multiple times. As barriers on the border made crossings more & more dangerous, immigrant workers stopped going back home and began staying here and bringing their families here.

The wall does nothing to stop immigration (or terrorism, drugs, etc...) as long as we keep paying immigrants to come here. They risk their lives coming here because we as a country keep paying them to come here.

So the idiot racist xenophobes who want this wall to keep foreigners out are really working to keep them from ever leaving once they get here. Sheer stupidity. Frightened and heartless stupidity.
Posted By: CharmingSophisticate

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/12/19 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Gnudz
What the idiots who want this wall to keep immigrants out don't understand is that rather than keeping immigrants out, walls mostly keep immigrants from going back home after they've come here to work.

Before we built a bunch of walls in the 70's, 80's and especially the 90's, immigration was largely circular. Immigrants would come here to work and then go back home, often crossing back and forth multiple times. As barriers on the border made crossings more & more dangerous, immigrant workers stopped going back home and began staying here and bringing their families here.

The wall does nothing to stop immigration (or terrorism, drugs, etc...) as long as we keep paying immigrants to come here. They risk their lives coming here because we as a country keep paying them to come here.

So the idiot racist xenophobes who want this wall to keep foreigners out are really working to keep them from ever leaving once they get here. Sheer stupidity. Frightened and heartless stupidity.

A)Why would Mexicans go back to Mexico by going around (presumably on foot) the border crossing?

B) Why are you assuming that illegal immigrants are all, or mostly Mexicans?
Posted By: Gnudz

Re: So, what if the WALL doesn't stop crime, drugs, and illegal immigration? What then? - 01/12/19 01:12 AM

Originally Posted By: CharmingSophisticate
Originally Posted By: Gnudz
What the idiots who want this wall to keep immigrants out don't understand is that rather than keeping immigrants out, walls mostly keep immigrants from going back home after they've come here to work.

Before we built a bunch of walls in the 70's, 80's and especially the 90's, immigration was largely circular. Immigrants would come here to work and then go back home, often crossing back and forth multiple times. As barriers on the border made crossings more & more dangerous, immigrant workers stopped going back home and began staying here and bringing their families here.

The wall does nothing to stop immigration (or terrorism, drugs, etc...) as long as we keep paying immigrants to come here. They risk their lives coming here because we as a country keep paying them to come here.

So the idiot racist xenophobes who want this wall to keep foreigners out are really working to keep them from ever leaving once they get here. Sheer stupidity. Frightened and heartless stupidity.

A)Why would Mexicans go back to Mexico by going around (presumably on foot) the border crossing?

B) Why are you assuming that illegal immigrants are all, or mostly Mexicans?


I thought it was pretty clear that since we're discussing the WALL that I was only referencing those immigrants that would be affected by it.

I never said immigrants returned to their home countries via the dangerous cross-country roots, but when they come back to the US to work the jobs we pay them to, they are often forced to take routes that are increasingly dangerous and often deadly. Better not to go back home at all if you risk dying on your way back to work.

When we are talking about immigration on the southern border, the border where Trump wants to build his wall, we are talking about the immigrant labor that said wall would supposedly be a barrier against, no? At no point did I say they were "all, or mostly Mexicans." Most immigration across our southern border lately comes from countries further south than Mexico.
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