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Pyzel Phantom struggles

Posted By: thelodge

Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 01:39 PM

Had the board in about 5 surfs, in waves in that 3-5' range, hollow conditions.
Board is very strange. Seems to be a dead spot when I go left, it "hesitates, or slows down" at points.
The board surfs better backside but feels stiff, surfs bigger then the board is.

I have tried AM Med Core fins, Reactor (k2.1) and AM med honeycomb. Reactor felt better but lost some drive. The AM honeycomb (orange ones) felt ok also. AM Med Air core way to stiff.

The board definitely feels like it can handle solid waves.

I will give it a few more surfs before unloading it.

The board is a 5'11. I'm 6'0 185ish. Been surfing for 30 years.

Fin issue? Need to get used to it more?
Posted By: retodd

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 02:07 PM

2 things come to mind

First, the rocker and you just do not get along

Second, the fins were set with more toe in than what is desired. In my past experience I have had this happen . it surfs backside better because you go more top to bottom vs a linear approach from side ( amplifies the snow plow affect )
Posted By: richfs

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 02:13 PM

I havent ridden the Phantom, but that is *exactly* my impression of the ghost, which is supposedly of the same family as phantom.

Only difference it went worse on my backside than frontside.

hated the ghost.
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 02:58 PM

I have 2 ghosts and a phantom.

I got my first ghost like a year ago and I clicked with it right away.

The phantom I've had like 3-4 months and while I had some good sessions early on I also had some shockers. I think a bit of that was due to expectations. I was expecting it to grovel and skate over flat spots a bit better than it does but the reality is, while it has a deeper single concave through the midsection it's still the same rocker as the ghost which is meant for good waves with push.

It's weird that you say it feels like a bigger board. I'm 6'3" on a 6'1" (custom) and feel like another inch or two would be nice. Mine feels very lively and easy to throw around. I found right away that without some large and/or raked fins the board lacked drive. At 175lb. I'm liking am2's the best. Another thing I've found with both the ghost and phantom is, due to the forward outline and foam flow, the speed is found a little further forward on the board. The nose rocker looks low but it's not and once I started getting up over it a little more and really pushing off the whole rail for speed it really opened up the phantom for me. Still have to get that back foot over the pad for turns but I've been surfing baja points for the past few weeks mostly riding the phantom and I rarely feel like I'm lacking drive.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 03:14 PM

Thank guys. Good feedback. I really want this board to work.

Aruka, I usually never do well with large am (feels like I can't turn them) but will give them a try before I sell.

Maybe the AM Med Air core was too stiff? The am core had drive but feels like I couldn't keep it loose and skatey.

AM MED fins are my go-to fin in most boards.
Posted By: crotchgrab

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 03:41 PM

I agree with Aruka. I only have a ghost but love it. These boards go really well when you shuffle around more than most.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 04:05 PM

Aruka,

AM2 in Fcs?
Posted By: sdsurfrat

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 04:15 PM



Maybe try some real fiberglass fins... shrug

phuck those china 400% margins jewelry fins toilet
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: thelodge
Thank guys. Good feedback. I really want this board to work.

Aruka, I usually never do well with large am (feels like I can't turn them) but will give them a try before I sell.

Maybe the AM Med Air core was too stiff? The am core had drive but feels like I couldn't keep it loose and skatey.

AM MED fins are my go-to fin in most boards.



It is puzzling that the board feels stiff with medium am's and yeah it doesn't seem like larger fins would help with that any. I would say for this whole "ghost family" of boards since they have a pretty smooth rocker and outline they are more carvey than slidey, if that makes any sense. Like, the phantom looks like it should break free and slide around pretty easily with that wider tail but with the continuous rocker and smooth outline it kinda just holds. For me that was what really made me fall in love with the ghost in my first good session was coming into a big bowl with speed and laying into it as hard as I could and the board just cut into the face and held all the way through the turn and didn't skip or stutter like I expected. The phantom has a lot wider tail but there is still a lot of hold on the rail which makes it pretty fun in big surf like couple feet overhead and punchy no problem. I have gotten better at creating speed on the phantom in small waves but it's still not a great groveler compared to my Stamps GX which has staged midsection rocker for better planing and a little hip in the outline to free up the tail. I don't bother with the phantom unless it's fairly decent surf usually chest+.
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 04:45 PM

Stock 5í11 is probably too big for you.
Posted By: trevorbc

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 04:47 PM

I'm exactly your size and medium fins lack drive. AM2 (Merrick Large) in Futures is my go to fin that always works. GAM (Merrick large) in FCS2
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 05:07 PM

At 6'0 185 lbs? I'm from NJ and use it in a 5 mill for the winter.
Posted By: trevorbc

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 05:14 PM

Yea man. I'm 6'0 185 and in Maine so same wetsuit deal, surfing 30 plus years too. Medium fins are too small in my opinion unless the waves are very good or you are willing to put in the time to make a board work no matter what. AM2 all the way.
Posted By: trevorbc

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 05:17 PM

If that doesn't work then as Retodd said, you may just not click with that rocker. I've felt this way about the DHD DX1 and Lost V2.
Posted By: sozzle

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 05:18 PM

i used to hate my phantom but i love it now, took me 3-4 months to get it to work consistently but i'm glad i kept it, using large mayhems on the sides and a wct/2.1 rear, i'm 155lbs on a stocko 5'7" in full 5mm winter kit.

you do need to shuffle around a bit for sure to get the most out of it unless the waves are really good but i can get it grooving even in smaller weak shit now as long as i make sure to stay tight in the pocket,

i haven't had a board that comes out of turns like the phantom does for a long long time.
Posted By: kool-aid

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 05:40 PM

That's weird. I clicked with my Phantom straight away but it is a little bit different than the stock ones. Narrower and thicker.

One thing that surprised me, however, is that it didn't go well with my standard fins (FT2) which is usual because that's a very neutral template and usually doesn't get in the way of boards.

I use the board with large JW fins which I like but can be hit or miss for me but strangely seems to work in the Phantom in any conditions. Even though the tail doesn't seem overly wide, it seemed to respond much better to larger, more racked fins.

At 6'0 185, I'm surprised to hear that you're riding medium fins. If you have any large fins, I'd give them a try. Otherwise, maybe it's just not the board for you.

What do you usually ride?
Posted By: delmartian

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 05:43 PM

Maybe your Phantom is too small then :-)

It's been my go-to board since October and has worked very nicely for me. I feel like it has plenty of speed even in smaller waves as long as you are actively using your legs and rail to keep your momentum up. Probably not the best board for just pointing and cruising.

I agree with Aruka, though, about finding the speed a bit more forward. My natural tendency from years of snowboarding is to put a bit more weight than I should on the front foot when trying to pump the board and go faster. That seems to work well with this board and then I can lean back on the tail pad when I have all that speed and hammer a hard turn with no trouble. But I can imagine that maybe this board wouldn't click with someone who is used to having slightly more weight on their back foot while working a board rail to rail in order to generate speed.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/14/19 06:33 PM

My 5'10 Roberts Meat Cleaver with Roberts med fins went well. My CI Fred Rubble with AM Med fins went very well.

I have also always used the AM Med or Future WCT or Roberts Med.

The Phantom has drive just doesn't feel smooth and on my frontside it has dead spots.

I'm a pretty good surfer (without tooting m own horn).

Will try with bigger AM fins.
Posted By: Waxfoot

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 01:45 AM

177cm and 83KG (nearly 40, fit, surfing since 14 y/o, front footed surfer)
(Iíll let you do the conversion to freedom units)

I bought a stock 5.10í Phantom, and itís the board by which all other boards will be measured by. Simply put, I feel itís the best board I have had in years. My famiyís been criticising me for boards revolving in and out of my quiver, and Iíve had some hits and some misses. Over all, thereís been initial froth over a new shooter, but not long after Iíd pick on something I didnít like. This is obviously reflective of me being a shit surfer, but then again, most of us are shit. The Phantom however, I cannot fault.

It has enough* speed, and I love the way it feels when I pump and work the rails. Takeoffs are easier (presumably because of the wider point forward), and it whips off the top with ease. I think Stab put it best here, where they mention that itís just a board that letís you surf to your capability without any weirdness
https://stabmag.com/hardware/joyride-an-honest-review-of-the-pyzel-phantom-surfboard-test/

Only tried it thus far with Large aircore FCS2 AM fins, and would certainly recommend trying out bigger fins to drive you through the flat spots you mention. Have you tried it as a quad yetÖ Noel Salsa seems to have loved that set up more than the thruster, and it certainly seemed better in the comparative footage.
Posted By: shaheeb

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 08:42 AM

this boart felt really smooth imo, bigger fins for sure at your size.
Posted By: SharkBoy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 09:35 AM

Originally Posted By: thelodge
Had the board in about 5 surfs, in waves in that 3-5' range, hollow conditions.
Board is very strange. Seems to be a dead spot when I go left, it "hesitates, or slows down" at points.
The board surfs better backside but feels stiff, surfs bigger then the board is.

I have tried AM Med Core fins, Reactor (k2.1) and AM med honeycomb. Reactor felt better but lost some drive. The AM honeycomb (orange ones) felt ok also. AM Med Air core way to stiff.

The board definitely feels like it can handle solid waves.

I will give it a few more surfs before unloading it.

The board is a 5'11. I'm 6'0 185ish. Been surfing for 30 years.

Fin issue? Need to get used to it more?


interesting, your exact issue with dead spot and tougher backside is a problem i've found with boards that were meant to be smaller, but i got them bigger .

Back in the day when I was riding 6'0 x18 1/4 2 1/4, i wanted something for mushier surf. The AM flyer was sort of new and the description seemed fitting. go 1 inch shorter, 1/4" wider. But i thought I could go bigger anyways. Went with only slider wider dims and a little longer and found a twitchy driveless board that got hung up a lot. And it was a boat by comparison.
then I tried one that was the same volume as my sb that was 1 inch shorter and 1/4 inch wider, and voila, magic.

exactly the same thing happened with the RNF from lost. I'm wondering, if your board is too big, or if your fins are too small for your board
Posted By: daave

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 01:53 PM

Same experience for me (roughly same size/set up too). Freaking love it. I'm 170-175 and AM large seems perfect in the board. I've generally used medium fins in my past too. You can try a smaller/more upright center fin if needed for more looseness.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 02:41 PM

Thanks for the input. I feel if I get the fins right and get more used it the board is going to go mental. The board also has a lot of lift...

Going to try with the bigger AM fins. Also, for the heck of it I'm going to try it as a quad since Noel Salas looked so fast and smooth on it when he did the review. I'm not a quad guy but I'm interested.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 02:46 PM

On sizing it, Pyzel website says to order about your height. I went an inch shorter to 5'11 (I'm 6').

Most of my other HP shortboards run between 30-31L. The Phantom I have is 31L, figured it would help in the NJ winters with all the rubber and moving water on big swells we get.
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 02:52 PM

I think your sizing is pretty good.

I only rode mine as a quad once and the waves were crap but I did get a few fast slashes on it that felt good. Been meaning to try it as a quad again, maybe next sesh.
Posted By: surfwhere

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: retodd
2 things come to mind

First, the rocker and you just do not get along

Second, the fins were set with more toe in than what is desired. In my past experience I have had this happen . it surfs backside better because you go more top to bottom vs a linear approach from side ( amplifies the snow plow affect )


Retodd's on it. Board is in a different rocker family. Adding tail rocker to what you are used to can make a board feel like it doesn't have drive. The Meat Cleaver and FR have less tail rocker with op's surfing over the years tuned to less. Generating speed is a different dance step. Slows down as it should when you become more neutral and then more rear weighted. That's the result of more than low tail rocker. Backside gets ass weight over rail+tail easier and then speeds up face or stalls comfortably. Put more pressure on rear toe side for front side to push tail through turn and generate speed, slow down rearward weight shift. Surfing less tail rocker you learn to surf neutral or more front footed and subtle rear weight creates what is perceived as positive reaction. Board being shorter than you are tail, the tail rocker is more sensitive than if it was longer. With more tail rocker rearward weight is creating a perception of a negative reaction because you're not expecting the result and you are probably trying to or expecting to generate speed and turn in the same manner as previous.

Instead of trying to pump for speed try to look for speed in sections and glide through them Once once you learn to get to those spots without much motion then you can learn to pump to them in the way the different rockers require it. A different way of surfing for you. If you don't feel comfortable to where it starts to feel natural then going back to a design you previously liked is the better call.

I ride my Roberts Turbo Diesel in Outer Banks and it has similar approach like Phantom/Ghost. I had similar experience of adjustment due to riding Black Punt many years which in similar rocker vein as FR. I surf a lot but still rather surf familiar rockers making the boards I like better than rolling dice on other rockers in the same waves I ride all the time. I have boards with more tail rocker for steep bigger days. You may only want to ride the Phantom on steepest days with very few flat spots and have something with less rocker for fatter days if you can wrap your head around it.
Posted By: surfwhere

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: thelodge
Thanks for the input. I feel if I get the fins right and get more used it the board is going to go mental. The board also has a lot of lift...

Going to try with the bigger AM fins. Also, for the heck of it I'm going to try it as a quad since Noel Salas looked so fast and smooth on it when he did the review. I'm not a quad guy but I'm interested.


Quads will give you more drive and compensate for the loss of drive from the additional tail rocker. Or you can go with bigger fins to help you generate speed as more fin will be working. Once they start to feel tight then you can downsize to your normal fins or go to your regular center. If they still feel tight then go to normal fins since you're now used to the board. If those too loose then find a set in between. Or go quad.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/15/19 10:13 PM

wow. Good stuff surfwhere. I use Roberts Dream Catcher is the real solid surf here. I love Roberts boards and I'm looking to pick up the Bio Diesel in the future.

Good info.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 11:41 AM

Phantom Update.

Friend let me borrow old set of Large AM fiberglass fins (the old blue ones). Waves were only waist to chest high and clean with punch The board went so smooth frontside, felt much much better, no dead spots. I couldn't believe the bigger fins worked, you guys were all right. I never surfed large fins in all my years of surfing, only med.

I will see how the board goes backside on the next swell and if that works will pick up a large set of AM fins performance core. Was even thinking of trying it with a MED AM center fin to see if it really loosens it up but still maintaining the drive.

I did try it with a quad but it was terrible, but i'm not a quad guy to begin with.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 11:48 AM

"I did try it with a quad but it was terrible, but i'm not a quad guy to begin with."

4 fins , Twins and Thrusters all work great with the right fins .

You would be a "Quad Guy " if you had good help in finning the board .
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
"I did try it with a quad but it was terrible, but i'm not a quad guy to begin with."

4 fins , Twins and Thrusters all work great with the right fins .

You would be a "Quad Guy " if you had good help in finning the board .


This. All of my quads have a very specific fin setups and anything else sucks dog balls.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 05:44 PM

Show me a quad set up that I can surf top to bottom with high performance like my thruster and I will be a believer.

I have never found one, especially surfing on by backside.

They are great from me for big barrels or even for cruising in small waves.

Suggest a quad set up and I will try.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 06:05 PM

"Show me a quad set up that I can surf top to bottom with high performance like my thruster and I will be a believer.

I have never found one, especially surfing on by backside."

Because the industry is based on no fins for the board , its been left up you to learn what I have .

Fins that will make your board excel .










High Speed cutback - "Backside"
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: thelodge
Show me a quad set up that I can surf top to bottom with high performance like my thruster and I will be a believer.

I have never found one, especially surfing on by backside.

They are great from me for big barrels or even for cruising in small waves.

Suggest a quad set up and I will try.



K 2.1 quad set for one of my boards. Obviously itís not going to surf exactly like a thruster but it goes top to bottom no problem. Only real difference between the quad setup and thruster setup is that everything is done with more speed on the quad.

If you donít like going faster then you just keep riding those thrusters.

but like I said, quad sets are board specific.
Posted By: Colin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 08:06 PM

ďIf you donít like going faster then you just keep riding those thrustersĒ

Yessir. Thatís it right there. It took me quite a bit of experimentation to figure out my preferred setup. Quads are sensitive. But once I figured out what works for me, thrusters have ZERO appeal.

Also +1 to whoever said ditch the jewelry and get a proper set of all fiberglass fins.
Posted By: Coat Hanger

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/17/19 11:49 PM

Stiffer fins have always been the first thing I would try.
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
ďIf you donít like going faster then you just keep riding those thrustersĒ

Yessir. Thatís it right there. It took me quite a bit of experimentation to figure out my preferred setup. Quads are sensitive. But once I figured out what works for me, thrusters have ZERO appeal.

Also +1 to whoever said ditch the jewelry and get a proper set of all fiberglass fins.


I have a couple good thrusters. I like thrusters for my small wave boards. Tighter turns.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 01:12 AM

By the way, the AM large fins I used were fiber glass fins made by Rainbow Fin Company.

Suggest a quad set up for my phantom, I will try and lets see how it goes. Im open.

Sometimes I don't want to go faster, I want to stick in the barrel. Thrusters, for me, and a lot of good surfers, is the most high performance top to bottom surfing you will do.

So yes I will stick to my thrusters until I find the right " experimentation" of quads which Griffin is going to help me out with. :-)
Posted By: Waxfoot

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 03:22 AM

Happy that the larger fin recommendation worked out for you. It's such a stunning board, it would have been a shame to give up on it too quickly!
Posted By: bird.

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: thelodge
I couldn't believe the bigger fins worked, you guys were all right. I never surfed large fins in all my years of surfing, only med.


If you're like me, you'll now end up running large fins in pretty much all your boards wondering how you ever liked medium fins in the first place. cheers
Posted By: paunch23

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 08:27 PM

Wow for real??🤔

Care to explain that again? Why bigger fins work better??
Posted By: jkb

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 08:44 PM

I'm a thruster guy too. I like the control and the predictability. That being said, I have found some quad sets that work extremely well.

Try the Large AM's in front and Medium Reactor quad rear fins. Thruster like pivot, but with quad benefits.
Posted By: bird.

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 11:24 PM

Originally Posted By: paunch23
Wow for real??🤔

Care to explain that again? Why bigger fins work better??


180lbs+
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/18/19 11:38 PM

. That being said, I have found some quad sets that work extremely well.

None that come as part of the purchase socrazy


You should ask more of the industry , but just went along with this - creating all this frustration .


Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
. That being said, I have found some quad sets that work extremely well.

None that come as part of the purchase socrazy


You should ask more of the industry , but just went along with this - creating all this frustration .




This...

https://www.cisurfboards.com/surfboards/legacy-lineup/wizard-sleeve/

...came with a set of fins made for it.

And wouldnít you know it, those fins work the best.
Posted By: jkb

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Duffy
Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
. That being said, I have found some quad sets that work extremely well.

None that come as part of the purchase socrazy


You should ask more of the industry , but just went along with this - creating all this frustration .




This...

https://www.cisurfboards.com/surfboards/legacy-lineup/wizard-sleeve/

...came with a set of fins made for it.

And wouldnít you know it, those fins work the best.


Meh.

I've had fins that have come with boards before that weren't the best (for me). I'm sure they were the best for someone, but not for me.
Posted By: Waxfoot

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 12:27 AM

Originally Posted By: paunch23
Wow for real??🤔

Care to explain that again? Why bigger fins work better??


Kinda surprised that you're so surprised... broadly speaking, you're a bigger guy, you need bigger fins.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 01:23 AM

"Meh.

I've had fins that have come with boards before that weren't the best (for me). "

Most likely off the shelf non custom for the design fins placed "somewhere " on the bottom near the rear of the board dancing
Posted By: casa_mugrienta

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 02:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
"Show me a quad set up that I can surf top to bottom with high performance like my thruster and I will be a believer.

I have never found one, especially surfing on by backside."

Because the industry is based on no fins for the board , its been left up you to learn what I have .

Fins that will make your board excel .



How do you make fins for a board you haven't seen?
Posted By: need 4 speed

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 02:57 AM

I'd start with a 1/4" panel and a bandsaw
Posted By: casa_mugrienta

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: need 4 speed
I'd start with a 1/4" panel and a bandsaw


Right.

I agree with Greg's "fins made for the board" thinking.

What I don't understand is how someone makes fins for a board they haven't seen, and that those fins are somehow going to be better than something chosen from Futures or FCS.

What is the order process like if I were to order fins from Greg? Would I need to take measurements off the board or something?
Posted By: need 4 speed

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 03:25 AM

Ah,yes. In paticular the fin box position and issue you are having with the board
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 12:10 PM

"What I don't understand is how someone makes fins for a board they haven't seen, and that those fins are somehow going to be better than something chosen from Futures or FCS."

50 + years of dealing with fins as part of design you learn a lot .

I ask what fins they like , where the fins are placed , picture of the board etc .

Futures and FCS ask nothing and know nothing about board design .


Marketing = confusion and frustration in most cases , very much so in surfing

This is why you cant grasp how a 50 + year shaper who's made fins since the beginning can make a better fin for your board than a deck grip company wave2


This is enterntaining , my posts here have changed what many are riding and their view on design .

Need 4 speed being one .
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 01:30 PM

My Med fins have always worked and worked very well. Fast, loose and skatey with plenty of drive.

I use AM Med on my 5'9 Dumpster Diver and the board goes insane. I used the Roberts Med fin on Meat Cleaver and the board went incredible (btw great fins). I use WCT Future on my Roberts Dream CAtcher, same result: fast, loose, and I can rip turns.

I'm starting to think it is a flex thing for me. The Large AM I tried were fiberglass which was has a ton of flex.
All my Med fins are honeycomb with a lot of flex. I hate stiff fins.

The AM Med Air Core were way to stiff, they were tracking.
Posted By: jkb

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Most likely off the shelf non custom for the design fins placed "somewhere " on the bottom near the rear of the board dancing


No, they were custom fins made specifically for the board. I found an off the shelf pair that worked better (for me).

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Futures and FCS ask nothing and know nothing about board design .


Futures and FCS aren't the ones making the board or deciding where the plugs should be placed. The shaper is doing that.......most likely with their own template that they designed for Futures and FCS to make.

If Channel Islands is shaping a board, they're probably shaping it with the CI fin template in mind and placed where it makes the board work best for most users. Same with Timmy Patterson and his fin template, Mayhem and his fin template, Pyzel and his fin template, ect....

But it still doesn't mean that fin template will work the best for everyone.
Posted By: kool-aid

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 04:48 PM

I'm 5'11 and 180 and don't ride any fins that have less than 15.5 sq in surface area. When you look and see what fins pros are riding, it's interesting because except for the smallest guys, they're almost always on large fins even when they weigh like 160. More drive and speed in my opinion unless you overdo it with fin size, which is possible.
Posted By: Oeste858

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 05:54 PM

I'm with Greg on this one. Like he says, it's buying a car w/o tires. Aside from ease of use for travel, the whole fin system thing is a pain and created purely because FCS/Futures wanted a new product category to monetize (which is geniu$ on their part). For a lot of us, it ends up being trial and error process to figure out the fins for a new board- as this thread shows. Can be frustrating, expensive, as well as surfing time-wasting (which is the worst). I'm about 3 years into really experimenting with fins and trying to figure out what works for me & the boards I ride. But there are so many variables in board design and conditions for each session, trying to isolate what worked when a turn/wave/session felt good is just a guess. I'm honestly not sure how much more I really know than when I started! shrug
But I do own multiple sets of expensive fins now... Sucka! socrazy
At the very very least, shapers should recommend 2-4 templates with each board!
Posted By: casa_mugrienta

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/19/19 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Oeste858
For a lot of us, it ends up being trial and error process to figure out the fins for a new board- as this thread shows. Can be frustrating, expensive, as well as surfing time-wasting (which is the worst). I'm about 3 years into really experimenting with fins and trying to figure out what works for me & the boards I ride. But there are so many variables in board design and conditions for each session, trying to isolate what worked when a turn/wave/session felt good is just a guess. I'm honestly not sure how much more I really know than when I started! shrug


This 100%.

Also, complicating matters, flex patterns vary from fin to fin.

One thing I've noticed is fin area seems to be an irrelevant component for the most part as templates, thickness, and flex patterns vary.

A larger fin can feel loose and lack drive while a significantly smaller fin can feel drivey and tracky.
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/20/19 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Oeste858
I'm with Greg on this one. Like he says, it's buying a car w/o tires. Aside from ease of use for travel, the whole fin system thing is a pain and created purely because FCS/Futures wanted a new product category to monetize (which is geniu$ on their part). For a lot of us, it ends up being trial and error process to figure out the fins for a new board- as this thread shows. Can be frustrating, expensive, as well as surfing time-wasting (which is the worst). I'm about 3 years into really experimenting with fins and trying to figure out what works for me & the boards I ride. But there are so many variables in board design and conditions for each session, trying to isolate what worked when a turn/wave/session felt good is just a guess. I'm honestly not sure how much more I really know than when I started! shrug
But I do own multiple sets of expensive fins now... Sucka! socrazy
At the very very least, shapers should recommend 2-4 templates with each board!


I like the experimentation and the ability to broaden the range of a board by switching fins. I often wonder about the shit dog boards I got with glass-ons, if I could have just changed the fins....
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/20/19 01:25 PM

OP is claiming this is a "Shit Dog" board due to his choice in fins .

So back at ya on that rock
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/20/19 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
OP is claiming this is a "Shit Dog" board due to his choice in fins .

So back at ya on that rock


I still contend that the board is too big for him.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 12:17 AM

Yep

Missed it by an Inch

Sell that thing bricks
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 12:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Greg Griffin
Yep

Missed it by an Inch

Sell that thing bricks


Or he could gain some weight and put some AM 2s on there.
Posted By: Pyzel

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 12:37 AM

Hi---- I really dislike the subject name on this thread! shocked
As far as fins (even though you seem to have semi-solved the problem), if you weigh 180 you are generally going to benefit from a larger fin, but I also always take the tail shape/area into account as well. A simple rule for me is less tail area, smaller fins and the opposite for more tail area. The Phantom has a pretty wide tail and you can run larger fins in it to add drive without losing too much maneuverability. When a tail is more pulled in and you are surfing faster waves (usually the case for that type of board) the fin becomes more effective and it's qualities are more pronounced (especially more lift for the area)- just think of them like miniature airplane wings and imagine the way speed changes how they will work.
Hope you really ended up liking that board.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 01:35 AM

Not oversized, 5'11 is perfect - It is for NJ winters - 5m wetsuits, moving water and hollow beach breaks with strong offshore winds.

It was the fins. The Large Am work amazing. The board is sick. Its fast and turns amazing (wish I could post a video from the other day but not sure how on the forum). It loves curvy waves.

A lot of guys are riding Pyzel out here and are super stoked.

Pyzel, try come out here for a visit. Your boards are perfect for winter waves we got for breaks in New England, NY, NJ and the Outer Banks.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 02:17 AM

Daave , a poster and customer of mine here and on this thread loves Jon's boards .

He is in the New York - Boston area

Always contact the board builder when having questions .
Posted By: Waxfoot

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 10:16 PM

Rode it was a quad for the first time in very racey, down the line, sand bottom point break conditions. They were banging!

Rode Large FCS2 AM aircore, with Medium performer series trailers. Not sure if it was just the waves that had my flying, but feck me, I felt like I had a jetpack strapped on. Will need to test at my usual local spot when things here settle down to know if the quads had me going faster, or whether it was just the waves.

Made sections I didn't think I would though (maybe that's what the pricks dropping in thought too)
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 11:26 PM

Very Nice ending to 5 pages of confusion . cheers


Posted By: Waxfoot

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/21/19 11:56 PM

edit: deleted
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/22/19 03:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Waxfoot
Rode it was a quad for the first time in very racey, down the line, sand bottom point break conditions. They were banging!

Rode Large FCS2 AM aircore, with Medium performer series trailers. Not sure if it was just the waves that had my flying, but feck me, I felt like I had a jetpack strapped on. Will need to test at my usual local spot when things here settle down to know if the quads had me going faster, or whether it was just the waves.

Made sections I didn't think I would though (maybe that's what the pricks dropping in thought too)


Quads give you an extra gear. Shhhhh! Donít tell anyone.
Posted By: ReyRey

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/22/19 05:44 AM

I'm having similar feeling with my Ghost from time to time, but I think it really has to do with the fins.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/22/19 12:25 PM

"Quads give you an extra gear. Shhhhh! Donít tell anyone."

4 Fins before Futures and FCS had them :












OP should keep trying , 4 fin ride is worth it wave2
Posted By: trevorbc

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/23/19 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: thelodge
My Med fins have always worked and worked very well. Fast, loose and skatey with plenty of drive.

I use AM Med on my 5'9 Dumpster Diver and the board goes insane. I used the Roberts Med fin on Meat Cleaver and the board went incredible (btw great fins). I use WCT Future on my Roberts Dream CAtcher, same result: fast, loose, and I can rip turns.

I'm starting to think it is a flex thing for me. The Large AM I tried were fiberglass which was has a ton of flex.
All my Med fins are honeycomb with a lot of flex. I hate stiff fins.

The AM Med Air Core were way to stiff, they were tracking.




Large AM honeycomb. Try em man
Posted By: youcantbeserious

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/24/19 04:37 PM

I'm 6'4", 200 lbs. and I use the JJF large fins on my 6'4" Pyzel Phantom. I only have a thruster option on the board, it is essentially my "high performance short board" and I like thrusters much better for that. I only ride it when the waves are pretty good, and I have all the speed I want or need. I had smaller fins at first, didn't work as well for me.

At the end of the day, the Phantom is a much better board than I am a surfer, so when it feels wrong, I pretty much just have to be honest with myself and realize that it's the archer, not the arrow.
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/24/19 07:11 PM

OP contacted me for help , I asked for fin placements .

Picture and tail with would help as well .

I've done this for others here .

I'm sure I could make him happy with it as a 4 fin .
Posted By: Coat Hanger

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/27/19 04:43 PM

I only use Griffin fins. Best ever.
Posted By: obslop

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/27/19 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Coat Hanger
I only use Griffin fins. Best ever.


agree 100% on thruster; don't care for the quads
Posted By: Greg Griffin

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/27/19 10:31 PM

You would like custom 4 fin rears wave2
Posted By: fishtank

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/28/19 01:30 AM

Im curious how different JJF's boards differ from those on the racks?(beside the glass job & blank). How much extra foam Pyzel takes out of the rails and alters the concaves, etc. Been perusing instagram and seeing that he's added some foam to JJ's boards lately.
Posted By: surfy1476

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/28/19 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: fishtank
Im curious how different JJF's boards differ from those on the racks?(beside the glass job & blank). How much extra foam Pyzel takes out of the rails and alters the concaves, etc. Been perusing instagram and seeing that he's added some foam to JJ's boards lately.


Pyzel said that JJF rides stock dims but narrower.
Posted By: fishtank

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 02/28/19 01:43 AM

Yes I understand ... dimensions are only part of the picture. They can change the foil, rails, and concave, but leave the dimension the same.
Posted By: Pyzel

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 03/01/19 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: fishtank
Yes I understand ... dimensions are only part of the picture. They can change the foil, rails, and concave, but leave the dimension the same.


The boards that all of my team riders are on are built from the same base files that all of our stock and custom boards are made from, but I may make small adjustments to them to better suit the individual rider. For example one of JJF's Ghosts is identical to a stock board in outline, rocker, and bottom contour, but I might adjust his rail thickness to suit the way he likes to knife through a turn at high speed. His boards are also not a wide as stock boards, since his level of surfing demands a more sensitive feel. So actually I am doing pretty much the opposite of what you suggest, but exactly what I would do for anyone ordering a custom board from me. I have no reason to make my stock designs different than what my team rides- they are the best test pilots and despite what you may think they actually help me make better boards for everyone else.
Posted By: thelodge

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 03/21/19 05:59 PM

Board really never clicked with me. Didn't get along with the concave. Board Sold.
Posted By: paunch23

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 03/22/19 12:54 AM

I really like my stubby bastard.
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 04:00 PM

Thinking of picking one of these up for Indo trip this Sept. I know its more of a DD than a HPSB, but I'm 40 now and need the board to work for me here in SD when I get home. The stock 5'10" is 30L which is a lot for that size.

Im 6'0" x 165# and like volume and deep single concaves...so maybe this will work.

Thoughts on the the Phantom for the Ments?
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 05:22 PM

Phantom handles some juice compared to most other step down/daily drivers I've ridden. For me it feels good in quality baja point waves up to like 8-10 ft. faces and for local punchy beachbreaks around 6-8ft. faces. It could definitely be pushed further but at a certain point I just want more length for getting in earlier and drawing longer lines.

I think a properly sized Phantom would be fun just about anywhere in the world for waves with push in the waist-to-overhead size. I wouldn't want to go to Indo without something longer/sleeker as well but that's just me.

Can you feel up that 5'10" before you buy? The rails are pretty full through the midsection, not that I think the sizing is far off for what you describe, just that if you can get one under your arm I think it would be helpful.
Posted By: Hoarder

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 05:49 PM

If you're in central SD I know Salt Water Supply in OB usually has Phantoms in stock and does $100 off board sales semi frequently.
Posted By: fishtank

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 07:54 PM

Had a chance to feel up a stock 5'9" @ 2.44 thick, the rails felt very fat for that thickness, much more than expected. Was thinking of going 5'11 x 19.13 x 2.44 on a custom. The rails will need to be slimmed down a bit, still looking to be in the 29-29.5L range.
Posted By: daave

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 08:09 PM

As aruka said, I think this board rides a bit differently than it looks/feels. Rails do feel full but they also hold and feel pretty responsive.

Overall, this board has a pretty straight outline and a mellow entry. The extra concave flattens out the middle too. Most of the curve in the board is in the tail rocker. It doesn't have the twitchy feel of most stubby shortboards - and will hold in bigger/more solid surf.

I think the 5'10" sounds pretty good. Maybe the roundtail version since for the ments? It would still work in normal SD waves no problem. If you went 5'11 I would go custom to slim it down a bit.

Not sure if it helps but I'm about 6'0" x 175 and love the stock 5'10".
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 10:54 PM

Good input guys thanks.

Just for a little more background, I already have a 6'0" Ghost for when the waves get good, like hollow 6' + up to well overhead. I anticipate that if there is swell I'll be riding that board most of the time. I also have a 6'2" mini step up I'm going to bring for a little longer rail line and am thinking about getting a 6'4" for if it gets really big, but may ditch that thought.

The Phantom, or other DD to HPSB, would be for the smaller playful days...by Ments standards. I also want to ride it back home cause I cant afford to buy a board that's just good in Indo quality waves...thus the Phantom.

I do live in OB and just went to Salt Water to feel up a 5'10" they have. Its 5'10" x 19.5" x 2.5" x 30.1 L and felt good under arm. My first thought was I didn't want to be bringing something 19.5" wide to Indo and 30 L is a lot for a 5'10"...but your reviews above have pushed me back a bit. AND it is currently $100 off right now so its really affordable for a new board.
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 11:05 PM

If you've already got a 6-0 Ghost that you like the 5-10 Phantom is a no brainer. Same rail rocker line and only 0.2L of volume difference will make the transition pretty seamless.
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 11:22 PM

Actually...that's kinda the thing...I really don't like the Ghost...yet. I have only ridden it a few times in 6-8' mushy sunset cliffs waves. Most definitely NOT the waves its meant for. Im holding out hope that I'll like it in curvy hollow waves. I never got to try it at Blacks or Baja Malibu this winter, where I know it would excel.

I do generally really like boards with lower entry rocker, wider noses, wide point forward and deep single concave (i.e. Phantom). I'm a front foot surfer that grew up surfing at Sunset Cliffs and am used to wider flatter boards because of that.
Posted By: retodd

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/17/19 11:38 PM

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/spo/d/carlsbad-510roberts-white-diamond/6874613050.html

Seems like a cheaper solution
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 02:08 AM

Ghost doesn't like mush unless it's like...big and powerful, open ocean mush. Phantom doesn't love mush either, honestly. It wan'ts a pocket or at least some push. It's not really a step down groveler like a GrinderX, Subdriver, etc. It surfs more like a shortboard, just shorter and wider.
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 02:20 AM



You're kidding...right?
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Aruka
Ghost doesn't like mush unless it's like...big and powerful, open ocean mush. Phantom doesn't love mush either, honestly. It wan'ts a pocket or at least some push. It's not really a step down groveler like a GrinderX, Subdriver, etc. It surfs more like a shortboard, just shorter and wider.


Hmmmm...for $625 new on sale rn I might have to do this.

My other option was a custom 5'10" CI Black and White. Tried a demo before and really liked it. Only problem is the stock dims in 5'10" are around 26L. So I'd need a custom and it would end up being too expensive with tax and shipping to me. Especially cause I want it in Spine-Tek.
Posted By: retodd

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 03:21 AM

It was a joke

I don t know if you like JS boards but Usedsurf has 40 of them at steal prices . Supposed to have a sale This weekend too . Might be worth a call or dm on Insta for details
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 02:34 PM

Actually a lot of good stuff there thanks. Nothing quite like what Im looking for though unfortunately.
Posted By: EntropyFletch

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 06:48 PM

Just bought the 5-10 Shadow from Salt Water Supply...thanks for the input dudes.
Posted By: sozzle

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 05/18/19 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by EntropyFletch
Just bought the 5-10 Shadow from Salt Water Supply...thanks for the input dudes.



give us a breakdown on the shadow when you can, haven't had a chance to feel one up yet.
Posted By: Paolo_1985

Re: Pyzel Phantom struggles - 06/27/19 04:29 PM

I've recently tried my new Phantom in chest high conditions on a reef break (only one session by now). Board size 5'8", fins Accelerator M. At first glance, the feeling was good. I liked the board responsiveness and speed since my first wave. I will update once i'll try it in different conditions.
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