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Board longevity/durability

Posted By: manbearpig

Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 01:25 AM

The Maurice cole episode on the Lee Scales podcast got me thinking about this. What blank/resin/production process are people finding to have the longest life span and durability?

Thick stringers, varial foam, epoxy/pu were mentioned repeatedly.

Bonus points for some of the ďecoĒ products that have less of a toxic residue/effect. Algae blanks, bio resins, etc.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 01:55 AM

Its still hard to beat PU/PE if you put a proper glass job on it. I've done Epoxy/PU and they hold up real good too.
Posted By: retodd

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 01:57 AM

Products made by skilled people usually last the longest

Beware of eco marketing , surfboards all end in the landfill anyways
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: retodd
Products made by skilled people usually last the longest

Beware of eco marketing , surfboards all end in the landfill anyways

Agree to an extent on first point, however any shaper can and does build boards to be disposable based on $$ and rider.

And totally agree on second point. Iíve been pretty critical of a lot of the marketing and BS that is inherently associated with the eco material, but thereís some stuff thatís worthy. Cole made note of that.
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 02:16 AM

Cole was very critical of the PU/PE. Essentially said weíve been stuck on old and outdated material with better material available with either equal or better performance characteristics and opportunity. Hard to disagree with that with whatís available to be honest.
Posted By: grg

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: retodd
Products made by skilled people usually last the longest


Could not agree more especially glassing and even shapers picking the proper foam for what you are looking for.
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 02:41 AM

Listen to Parmenter, he speaks the truth in all his surf splendour podcasts. He answers your question in the second half of this one https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/241-on-boards-with-dave-parmenter-and-ryan-martz-part-four/

i.e high end sandwich builds coming out of the Asia are the strongest. Stay away from the low end non-composite wirecut eps/epoxy from that region - the inevitable pinholes will start sucking water.

However, its got to be taken into context. The advantages of sandwich strength to weight ratios are more significant for the bigger craft i.e. SUPs and longboards. Plus you won't get custom builds. Built properly PU/PE will be serviceable for years. He doesn't say it, but not everyone is going to like the sandwich build ride either (I do, but I'm probably in the minority).
Posted By: freeride76

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 02:47 AM

well glassed pu/pe has lasted the best for me.

epoxy over pu second.

those early FW builds looked pretty bullet-proof but the later builds seem increasingly flimsy.

None of my boards have ended up in landfill*, they are all under the house.

30 year old pu/pe guns that will surf fine when the dirt is scraped off.

* none in the last couple decades anyhow.
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 03:09 AM

The old fire wires were definitely pretty bullet proof.

Iíve had pu/pe last crazy long and crazy short. That probably comes down to a combination of luck and quality of craftsmanship from builder. But I think in controlled scenarios theyíd rank pretty low.
Posted By: CCKeith

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 03:20 AM

Dumb thread. You already know the answer. most durable boards are made of metal or redwood. next durable is inch wide or multiple stringers with 10 oz or whatever super strong cloth. you want to ride that stuff go ahead. otherwise it's surftech for you. the rest of us will ride pu blanks with poly or epoxy resin and appreciate the performance benefits. oh and the Firewire builds are complete shit, despit what Dafrost (Firewire fluffer) says here.
Posted By: freeride76

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 06:17 AM

not sure what it is like in the states but the quality/durability of stock pu/pe's is so much better now than it was 5-10 years ago here in oz.

I got a Pyzel Ghost pu/pe, had it for a year, thrashed it super hard on rocky points and an Indo trip and it's barely got a deck dent.
Posted By: Aruka

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 06:30 AM

FW seem like they should be durable but I don't really buy it.

Saw a buddy buckl his FW longboard in waist high waves. Thing was nearly new.

When I was in J-Bay I went to a ding guy to get a fin box repaired and the dude had a stack, like 10+ FW boards in the corner all buckled or snapped. I guess there are a couple guys there who are FW sponsored or get flow or something. Ding guy was not impressed by the foam faux stringers and the de-laminating wood veneers.

I'm sure you could break a board at J-bay but it's definitely not what I would consider a super heavy board breaking type wave so I dunno.

Coils are probably the most durable boards I've owned as far as dings but I did break one surfing a heavy beachbreak.

Stretch are def pretty durable and the XTR's I've been getting are holding up great as well.

All of my Stamps PU/PE hold up well compared to PU/PE from the big manufacturers. Noticeable difference.
Posted By: Black

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 10:56 AM

Surftech
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 11:58 AM

I've got a couple of 50+ year old PU/PE boards that are holding up quite nicely.

How did those hollow carbon fiber boards hold up........Avisio I think they were called?
Posted By: Duffy

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: freeride76
well glassed pu/pe has lasted the best for me.

epoxy over pu second.

those early FW builds looked pretty bullet-proof but the later builds seem increasingly flimsy.

None of my boards have ended up in landfill*, they are all under the house.

30 year old pu/pe guns that will surf fine when the dirt is scraped off.

* none in the last couple decades anyhow.


You have a landfill under your house... nana
Posted By: Sharkbiscuit

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 01:38 PM

I'll nominate Lib Tech; pjhp probably out pretty soon.
Posted By: BillyOcean

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 01:48 PM

I have a CI flexbar

Yesterday I had a closeout detonate right in the center of the board

It was so perfectly right in the center I was like oh sh-t thinking it probably had snapped

But it was fine

I might have just been lucky but I think when CI first came out with flexbar they guaranteed it for a year

I think theyíve moved on from this construction except for customs because itís too labor intensive

I like it and will probably order another one if they still offer it down the road
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 05:07 PM

Flexbar has a lot of carbon strips and no stringer yes?

Cole is very critical of both types of builds. Iíve always known the carbon to be complete BS, it creates a breaking point which Iíve experienced on a few boards. Stringerless wouldnít be my first choice for durability.
Posted By: BillyOcean

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Flexbar has a lot of carbon strips and no stringer yes?

Cole is very critical of both types of builds. Iíve always known the carbon to be complete BS, it creates a breaking point which Iíve experienced on a few boards. Stringerless wouldnít be my first choice for durability.


It has some kind of stringer thing. Description of build is below

https://www.cisurfboards.com/flex-bar/
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 06:00 PM

Oh I see now. Some of images look stringerless.
Posted By: Maz

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 06:49 PM

Can second Freeride's Pyzel pu/pe observations.

Have a 3-4yo Pyzalien, which I use at super rocky spots where dings are very likely. Almost put my knee through it when it was near new, but it's still going strong.

Likewise, my 2yo Nugget and Ghost are in excellent condition. Probably have 200 days on the Nugget.

Ghost is 4/6+4, the others 4/4+4. Extraordinary glass jobs, and probably good blanks that weren't overshaped.
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 07:46 PM

Funny to see pyzel pop up. In relevance to the podcast Cole spoke a bit about a pyzel board Florence rode in nearly every CT contest until it buckled at pipe.
Posted By: sd_101

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/02/19 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Aruka
All of my Stamps PU/PE hold up well compared to PU/PE from the big manufacturers. Noticeable difference.


In my experience, Iíve seen the same.

Glass will spider but not break. Opposite of eggshells. Good control with the catalyst and no burn throughs while sanding, I guess.

Hardly any pressure dents, either. I havenít gone EPS with him because the in-house PU/PE is so good.
Posted By: shaheeb

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By: CCKeith
Dumb thread. You already know the answer. most durable boards are made of metal or redwood. next durable is inch wide or multiple stringers with 10 oz or whatever super strong cloth. you want to ride that stuff go ahead. otherwise it's surftech for you. the rest of us will ride pu blanks with poly or epoxy resin and appreciate the performance benefits. oh and the Firewire builds are complete shit, despit what Dafrost (Firewire fluffer) says here.


lol
Posted By: pademauge

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 12:57 PM

My olds Surftech tuflite have hold the best without a doubt.
Posted By: stu dog

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Funny to see pyzel pop up. In relevance to the podcast Cole spoke a bit about a pyzel board Florence rode in nearly every CT contest until it buckled at pipe.


I still have every Pzyel board I've had shaped for me think it's back to 2012, except the one I sold. all are still in very good shape and perfectly rideable. PU + S-cloth
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 06:29 PM

The blank companies offer different densities of foam. By simply requesting a more dense foam and using some S-glass you can have a pretty bulletproof PU/PE shortboard.
Posted By: mundus

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 06:54 PM

I worked fixing boats as a teenager and the knowledgeable fiberglass guys were always saying boards were made of the wrong materials, that was 25 years ago.
Posted By: stu dog

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: mundus
I worked fixing boats as a teenager and the knowledgeable fiberglass guys were always saying boards were made of the wrong materials, that was 25 years ago.


yeah, but how does the "correct" materials flex shrug EPS just has too much damping for me so all the energy comes back under my feet in good+ waves. maybe if i gave it more of a chance on crappy waves.
Posted By: mundus

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 08:41 PM

Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?
Posted By: freeride76

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 08:45 PM

I think pu/pe manufacturers were forced to up their game and improve durability due to asian surfboards, first Surftech, then FW who used improved durability as a selling point.


Ironically, pu/pe's got stronger, FW's got weaker and Surftechs went extinct.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 08:49 PM

Designs have changed a bit too so you're not seeing as many broken PU/PE boards as you did 20 years ago.
Thicker wider shorter = less breakage.
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: mundus
Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?

Some do genuinely want more durable boards, despite the fact it theoretically means less units sold.
Posted By: mundus

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Designs have changed a bit too so you're not seeing as many broken PU/PE boards as you did 20 years ago.
Thicker wider shorter = less breakage.
Actually a good point.
Posted By: stu dog

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: freeride76
I think pu/pe manufacturers were forced to up their game and improve durability due to asian surfboards, first Surftech, then FW who used improved durability as a selling point.


Ironically, pu/pe's got stronger, FW's got weaker and Surftechs went extinct.


CI still puts out shitty glassed PU boards that wear out in 6 months shrug
Posted By: mundus

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 10:06 PM

Worst glass job ever was on a CI, if you looked at the thing wrong it dinged
Posted By: retodd

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/03/19 10:17 PM

Bet those issues were from a bad batch of blanks
Posted By: goingright

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 01:29 AM

I felt like I wasted 2-3 years riding all these stupid tech. PU/PE is the gold standard.
It was nice trying out those different techs but once I went back to PU/PE, it was like reuniting with an old friend.
Posted By: goingright

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 01:34 AM

Originally Posted By: mundus
Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?


For the most part, it's a marketing gimmick to move more boards. I will take anyday a board that breaks in 3 months than a board that lasts 2 years and shitty to ride.

I think my 2 cents also, PU/PE works as a dampener on a good wave. When energy of the wave is coming and you are paddling, pu/pe tends to Absorbs the energy of the wave and rides smooth. The energy of wave is nicely/efficiently transitioned into the surfer. Epoxy tends to do the opposite and bounce off water/energy especially when waves have juice. One epoxy board I had, as I was paddling and wanted to take off late backside, the tail kept fukkkin flexing back and forth like crazy as I come into contact with energy of the wave. Fukkkin weird. Not sure that makes sense. Just my experience but Im sure experienced surfers can make anything work and look good
Posted By: Retropete

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 02:05 AM

Originally Posted By: goingright
Originally Posted By: mundus
Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?


For the most part, it's a marketing gimmick to move more boards. I will take anyday a board that breaks in 3 months than a board that lasts 2 years and shitty to ride.

I think my 2 cents also, PU/PE works as a dampener on a good wave. When energy of the wave is coming and you are paddling, pu/pe tends to Absorbs the energy of the wave and rides smooth. The energy of wave is nicely/efficiently transitioned into the surfer. Epoxy tends to do the opposite and bounce off water/energy especially when waves have juice. One epoxy board I had, as I was paddling and wanted to take off late backside, the tail kept fukkkin flexing back and forth like crazy as I come into contact with energy of the wave. Fukkkin weird. Not sure that makes sense. Just my experience but Im sure experienced surfers can make anything work and look good

Essentialy a useless post.
Epoxy...ok that is resin. There's a vast number of different eps foams, laminations, skins, resins in use now that a blanket statement about epoxy boards serves no purpose. Need to be specific.
Posted By: stu dog

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 02:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Retropete
Originally Posted By: goingright
Originally Posted By: mundus
Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?


For the most part, it's a marketing gimmick to move more boards. I will take anyday a board that breaks in 3 months than a board that lasts 2 years and shitty to ride.

I think my 2 cents also, PU/PE works as a dampener on a good wave. When energy of the wave is coming and you are paddling, pu/pe tends to Absorbs the energy of the wave and rides smooth. The energy of wave is nicely/efficiently transitioned into the surfer. Epoxy tends to do the opposite and bounce off water/energy especially when waves have juice. One epoxy board I had, as I was paddling and wanted to take off late backside, the tail kept fukkkin flexing back and forth like crazy as I come into contact with energy of the wave. Fukkkin weird. Not sure that makes sense. Just my experience but Im sure experienced surfers can make anything work and look good

Essentialy a useless post.
Epoxy...ok that is resin. There's a vast number of different eps foams, laminations, skins, resins in use now that a blanket statement about epoxy boards serves no purpose. Need to be specific.


I'm pretty sure he means EPS foam instead of Epoxy
Posted By: goingright

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 02:17 AM

Quentin Tarantino puts it best. We can push technology as much as we want but there are some things that cant be replicated.

Posted By: mundus

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 02:26 AM

Originally Posted By: stu dog
Originally Posted By: Retropete
Originally Posted By: goingright
Originally Posted By: mundus
Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?


For the most part, it's a marketing gimmick to move more boards. I will take anyday a board that breaks in 3 months than a board that lasts 2 years and shitty to ride.

I think my 2 cents also, PU/PE works as a dampener on a good wave. When energy of the wave is coming and you are paddling, pu/pe tends to Absorbs the energy of the wave and rides smooth. The energy of wave is nicely/efficiently transitioned into the surfer. Epoxy tends to do the opposite and bounce off water/energy especially when waves have juice. One epoxy board I had, as I was paddling and wanted to take off late backside, the tail kept fukkkin flexing back and forth like crazy as I come into contact with energy of the wave. Fukkkin weird. Not sure that makes sense. Just my experience but Im sure experienced surfers can make anything work and look good

Essentialy a useless post.
Epoxy...ok that is resin. There's a vast number of different eps foams, laminations, skins, resins in use now that a blanket statement about epoxy boards serves no purpose. Need to be specific.


I'm pretty sure he means EPS foam instead of Epoxy
Yes, my mistake,
Posted By: manbearpig

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: goingright
Quentin Tarantino puts it best. We can push technology as much as we want but there are some things that cant be replicated.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BON9Ksn1PqI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I call BS in regards to build material having nowhere else to go. Lots of proof to the contrary.
Posted By: goingright

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 03:44 AM

Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Originally Posted By: goingright
Quentin Tarantino puts it best. We can push technology as much as we want but there are some things that cant be replicated.


I call BS in regards to build material having nowhere else to go. Lots of proof to the contrary.


Totally agree;)

Posted By: Retropete

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 04:17 AM

Originally Posted By: stu dog
Originally Posted By: Retropete
Originally Posted By: goingright
Originally Posted By: mundus
Never ridden an epoxy, so don't know. Do the manufacturers really want increased durability, doesn't that mean less units sold?


For the most part, it's a marketing gimmick to move more boards. I will take anyday a board that breaks in 3 months than a board that lasts 2 years and shitty to ride.

I think my 2 cents also, PU/PE works as a dampener on a good wave. When energy of the wave is coming and you are paddling, pu/pe tends to Absorbs the energy of the wave and rides smooth. The energy of wave is nicely/efficiently transitioned into the surfer. Epoxy tends to do the opposite and bounce off water/energy especially when waves have juice. One epoxy board I had, as I was paddling and wanted to take off late backside, the tail kept fukkkin flexing back and forth like crazy as I come into contact with energy of the wave. Fukkkin weird. Not sure that makes sense. Just my experience but Im sure experienced surfers can make anything work and look good

Essentialy a useless post.
Epoxy...ok that is resin. There's a vast number of different eps foams, laminations, skins, resins in use now that a blanket statement about epoxy boards serves no purpose. Need to be specific.


I'm pretty sure he means EPS foam instead of Epoxy

Sure he does too but as I then said there's too many combinations in the available builds to just blanket statement "epoxy" boards.
Posted By: Retropete

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 04:24 AM

Originally Posted By: goingright
Originally Posted By: manbearpig
Originally Posted By: goingright
Quentin Tarantino puts it best. We can push technology as much as we want but there are some things that cant be replicated.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BON9Ksn1PqI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I call BS in regards to build material having nowhere else to go. Lots of proof to the contrary.


Totally agree;)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DwIEei6xB88" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That electric foil would I assume be the most efficient way to go forward compared to trying to power along the planing hulls of surfboards.
Posted By: NinjaPete

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 05:24 AM

I consider my boards with wood or cork veneers as lifetime investments. Timbertek, Danny Hess, Stretch Legacy, Notox etc... They won't yellow and grow ugly and noodly like a PU board. Cork especially has really good properties for surviving a lifetime in water. I like the flex/feel of a cork board better than standard EPS. Plus, they just look cool especially when veneers are combined to make cool patterns.

https://youtu.be/6tNsfQz5hUM
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By: manbearpig
The Maurice cole episode on the Lee Scales podcast got me thinking about this. What blank/resin/production process are people finding to have the longest life span and durability?

Thick stringers, varial foam, epoxy/pu were mentioned repeatedly... .


Varial don't say what their foam is, but it seems to exhibit similar qualities to Rohacell which is PMI (Polyacrylamide) https://www.rohacell.com/product/rohacell/en/ and on Maurice Cole's Instagram it looks like he was trying Varial foam with a stringer, but we have yet to see that released to the general public.

Surftech's now defunct TL2 build used a Rohacell sandwich on EPS, not quite as tough as their divinycell sandwich (original tufflite), but more flexy and a less reactive ride.
Posted By: Muscles

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: mundus
Worst glass job ever was on a CI, if you looked at the thing wrong it dinged

Had a CI that was basically trashed after 12 weeks of near daily use. One time I landed on it after getting pitched over the falls and it left a 12x12 dent in the nose.
Posted By: Muscles

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 04:20 PM

I've tried many different variations of EPS and just didn't like it.

I prefer PU but I am interested in giving Varial Foam a try. The only reason I haven't is it is a huge markup over a regular blank. Most shapers I talked to charge $200-250 more for Varial foam. Seems risky for something that I'm not even sure will last longer than a PU.
Posted By: jkb

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 04:50 PM

It's been said here before, but it bares repeating based on where this thread is going. Not all EPS/Epoxy boards are equal (same goes for PU/PE).

Many people who have had negative experiences on EPS/Epoxy boards have probably only tried a construction that consists of an ultra light blank and a heavy glass job. This gives you a stiff, pingy sensation.....like you're bouncing off every little bump on the face.

However, if you get a board where the EPS blank is closer in density to the PU blank that you typically like and combine that with a glass schedule that you typically like, the feel is much closer to PU/PE. The added benefit to this type of construction is that Epoxy is less brittle than PE resin and in my experience, the board will definitely take more abuse (i.e. last longer).

Also, shapers that have a long history using and refining EPS/Epoxy builds (Stretch) have experimented a lot with glass layups like quadaxial glassing. In my experience, this allows them to use more glass (stronger) and still retain a flex that still feels really good, so much so that many prefer it in big waves.
Posted By: Waterlogged05

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 05:07 PM

Me and Deforest coming in to preach the benefits of XTR over EPS and PU
Posted By: jkb

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Waterlogged05
Me and Deforest coming in to preach the benefits of XTR over EPS and PU


roflmao

Count me in. I'm a believer as well.
Posted By: goingright

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: jkb
Originally Posted By: Waterlogged05
Me and Deforest coming in to preach the benefits of XTR over EPS and PU


roflmao

Count me in. I'm a believer as well.



roflmao

on a side note, I think my argument is you can spend much more money, time and resources experimenting with different tech, material construction etc

Not gonna bother with it. If I get 30 sessions on new pu/pe board (600 Dollars) and sell it for 300 bucks after 3 months, that's 10 dollars a session. Seems like a good deal to me. Bikers spend 5 to 10K on crazy gears. Golf costs a fortune. Even Tennis is 10 bucks to reserve a court for an hour. The argument that pu/pe is expensive since they break often doesn't make sense to me. Surfboards are cheap for the amount of enjoyment we get out of them and resale value is pretty good.

Posted By: Waterlogged05

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 10:08 PM

It doesn't seem that bad now that you break it down to cost per session. That being said, PU boards have gotten so pricey nowadays, that the incentive to go for a 500 dollar board over an 800 board is less when a new big box PU is a minimum of 650.

I have been on a used board kick as I try to re orient myself after being out of the water for years and losing my magic boards.
Posted By: goingright

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/04/19 10:24 PM

no doubt. I can't think of the name but this dude wrote a book that I read a while back.
He says basically that it robs us of enjoyment when we are presented with too many options.
Walk into a clothing store to Buy jeans and you have 10 different options. (Skinny, slim, relaxed, straight, boot cut etc)
Carbon, EPS, Aerospace, Space shuttle foam, this and that ...wtf
Keeping up with this shit is endless. Oh hell, just try to keep up with every board model that comes out for instance from lost website is fukkkin hell. Uber driver, Lyft Driver , taxi driver, couch potato, sofa potato

Fukkk man,, pick up a board, go have fun. No need to stress about you should be on hat

EDIT: Found the dude..lol
https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/149151423X
Posted By: Maz

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/05/19 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: goingright
Originally Posted By: jkb
Originally Posted By: Waterlogged05
Me and Deforest coming in to preach the benefits of XTR over EPS and PU


roflmao

Count me in. I'm a believer as well.



roflmao

on a side note, I think my argument is you can spend much more money, time and resources experimenting with different tech, material construction etc

Not gonna bother with it. If I get 30 sessions on new pu/pe board (600 Dollars) and sell it for 300 bucks after 3 months, that's 10 dollars a session. Seems like a good deal to me. Bikers spend 5 to 10K on crazy gears. Golf costs a fortune. Even Tennis is 10 bucks to reserve a court for an hour. The argument that pu/pe is expensive since they break often doesn't make sense to me. Surfboards are cheap for the amount of enjoyment we get out of them and resale value is pretty good.



Jeebus!

If I sell a board after 30 surfs, it's because it's a complete dog - or the wrong size for me.
Posted By: Topeslide

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/05/19 04:46 AM

No matter what the board construction is, it won't stop stupid, which means leaving boards out in the sun all of the time or rinsing it off after every sesh.
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/05/19 05:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Aruka
FW seem like they should be durable but I don't really buy it.

Saw a buddy buckl his FW longboard in waist high waves. Thing was nearly new.

When I was in J-Bay I went to a ding guy to get a fin box repaired and the dude had a stack, like 10+ FW boards in the corner all buckled or snapped. I guess there are a couple guys there who are FW sponsored or get flow or something. Ding guy was not impressed by the foam faux stringers and the de-laminating wood veneers.

I'm sure you could break a board at J-bay but it's definitely not what I would consider a super heavy board breaking type wave so I dunno.

Coils are probably the most durable boards I've owned as far as dings but I did break one surfing a heavy beachbreak.

Ö .


Aruka, that's a useful distinction of longevity/strength types you bring up with the Coil example. There are two different types under discussion here:

1. Ability to resist dings, dents, delams.

2. Snap/buckle resistance.

And I suppose there is ability to retain its "pop" which I think goes hand in hand with number 1. above.

As surfers putting our boards through general use we can draw some conclusions about durability type number 1. However, the only way of determining snap/buckle resistance is under controlled scientific conditions in a materials lab due to the random nature of circumstances that snap boards. For this reason anecdotal reports of boards snapping are next to useless. Additionally these reports sometimes come loaded with some alternative agenda to either discredit or credit a particular brand for ideological reasons. It sounds like you are just reporting what you see, but really a stack of broken FWs with no stack of broken pu boards being displayed by a repairer sounds suspicious to me.

I had a look at the varial website and they have used such a machine as shown below on some test panels. 3 point test doesn't exactly replicate a wave breaking a board, but I would trust this sort of test much more than anecdotes.

Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/05/19 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: goingright
no doubt. I can't think of the name but this dude wrote a book that I read a while back.
He says basically that it robs us of enjoyment when we are presented with too many options.
Walk into a clothing store to Buy jeans and you have 10 different options. (Skinny, slim, relaxed, straight, boot cut etc)
Carbon, EPS, Aerospace, Space shuttle foam, this and that ...wtf
Keeping up with this shit is endless. Oh hell, just try to keep up with every board model that comes out for instance from lost website is fukkkin hell. Uber driver, Lyft Driver , taxi driver, couch potato, sofa potato

Fukkk man,, pick up a board, go have fun. No need to stress about you should be on hat

EDIT: Found the dude..lol
https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/149151423X



So true.

How many of you really experiment with fins in your surfboards? Perhaps we should but most people don't. I put a set of fins in a board and the only time they come out is if the board is going on an airplane or if the board flat out doesn't work. So far I've had exactly one board that improved dramatically by using different fins and once I found the right set that's all that will ever be in that board. There's probably a lot of people like that.

Same thing with boards. Forget all the board names and hype. Go to a shop that has a good selection and dig through the racks until you find a shape that is pleasing to your eye. Buy it. Go have fun.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/05/19 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: Aruka
FW seem like they should be durable but I don't really buy it.

Saw a buddy buckl his FW longboard in waist high waves. Thing was nearly new.

When I was in J-Bay I went to a ding guy to get a fin box repaired and the dude had a stack, like 10+ FW boards in the corner all buckled or snapped. I guess there are a couple guys there who are FW sponsored or get flow or something. Ding guy was not impressed by the foam faux stringers and the de-laminating wood veneers.

I'm sure you could break a board at J-bay but it's definitely not what I would consider a super heavy board breaking type wave so I dunno.

Coils are probably the most durable boards I've owned as far as dings but I did break one surfing a heavy beachbreak.

Ö .


Aruka, that's a useful distinction of longevity/strength types you bring up with the Coil example. There are two different types under discussion here:

1. Ability to resist dings, dents, delams.

2. Snap/buckle resistance.

And I suppose there is ability to retain its "pop" which I think goes hand in hand with number 1. above.

As surfers putting our boards through general use we can draw some conclusions about durability type number 1. However, the only way of determining snap/buckle resistance is under controlled scientific conditions in a materials lab due to the random nature of circumstances that snap boards. For this reason anecdotal reports of boards snapping are next to useless. Additionally these reports sometimes come loaded with some alternative agenda to either discredit or credit a particular brand for ideological reasons. It sounds like you are just reporting what you see, but really a stack of broken FWs with no stack of broken pu boards being displayed by a repairer sounds suspicious to me.

I had a look at the varial website and they have used such a machine as shown below on some test panels. 3 point test doesn't exactly replicate a wave breaking a board, but I would trust this sort of test much more than anecdotes.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4qCI4bV3jQI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.
Posted By: tedshred5

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/05/19 06:19 PM

I've bought many OTR and custom boards over the last few years and nowadays a PU/PE board from a reputable builder lasts just as well for me as any others. I agree with the sentiment not to overthink things too much.
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/08/19 05:36 AM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.
Posted By: indodreams

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/08/19 08:37 AM

Ive been riding mostly Firewire boards for almost ten years now had between 10 to 15 still have four FW's, I've seen no difference in FST over that time still extremely durable only snapped one in Indonesian waves and lightly creased another (also snapped a Chilli EPS/Epoxy in fibreflex)

Compared to when i only rode PU/PE my snapping rate is similar and i have seen quite a few snapped ones in Indonesia, so from that perspective maybe they are not stronger than a standard PU/PE board.

Durability wise though just dings and cracks etc FST is super durable IMHO it's about three times more durable than an average PU/PE board, the only true damage I've had to any boards ding wise is from airline travel, cracked rails and tails, but if they were PU/PE boards you can bet the damage would have been much worse.

I do think a board can actually be too durable though for instance i like FST but the decks are pretty hard so get no foot wells and i like slight foot wells.

While their relatively new build Hellium IMHO is now the perfect balance between bottom and rail durability and a softer deck that gets slight foot wells and i think the deck just feels a bit better underfoot being softer.

100% though all EPS/Epoxy boards are not equal in durability or feel, even in Firewire range of techs they are very different pretty much all Slater Designs boards and lots of Tomos are in LFT which durability wise IMHO isn't that much different from a standard PU/PE board.

Posted By: toddo

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/08/19 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: NinjaPete
I consider my boards with wood or cork veneers as lifetime investments. Timbertek, Danny Hess, Stretch Legacy, Notox etc... They won't yellow and grow ugly and noodly like a PU board. Cork especially has really good properties for surviving a lifetime in water. I like the flex/feel of a cork board better than standard EPS. Plus, they just look cool especially when veneers are combined to make cool patterns.

https://youtu.be/6tNsfQz5hUM


my favourite build at the moment is VH eps core, then a sandwich skin of 4oz glass, 1mm cork, 2 or 4 oz glass over the cork.
- lightweight
- retains pop
- cork dampens the eps chatter
- pretty tough when it comes to dings (if you crack the outer layer - the cork is usually tough enough to absorb the impact and protect the inner layer)

I was previously doing exposed cork decks, but i'm finding using the cork in the middle of the laminate sandwich is working better for me.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/08/19 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.
Posted By: jkb

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/08/19 06:07 PM

I'm surprised that Varial didn't publish strength test comparisons of similar density PU, EPS, and Varial blanks side by side. That would be the logical test to determine which foam is stronger. Perhaps they did and didn't like the results shrug

The glass schedule data is interesting though. Didn't expect PE to be as strong as it is.
Posted By: indodreams

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/08/19 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.


Really?

My understanding is EPS foam retains its original shape from compression a lot better than PU foam.

For instance press in each foam before glassing and EPS will bounce back to original shape or close while PU foam will retain more of a finger mark.

Epoxy resin is generally softer and almost more rubber like than PE resin.

Hence why EPS/Epoxy is a good combo and less likely to retain the ding shape or crack when dinged because both are more likely to bounce back to original shape..

I would have expected??? if any extra resin was needed or composite construction used it was because the combo of EPS and Epoxy is lighter than PU/PE plus because of the more rubbery nature of Epoxy you are more likely to be able to create a composite construction that is strong but still allows the board to flex.

While id imagine a composite construction in PU/PE would create much more weight and be stiffer and less flex (risk of crack or delams) so not a good combo.

That was just what I've been told and understand and figured.

Posted By: ghostshaper

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 01:08 AM

Varial says they busted the myth of epoxy being stiffer. Who ever said it's stiffer? Epoxy doesn't spider crack b/c it's more flexible. There are different formulae of epoxy w/ different flex characteristics, too.

EPS comes in different densities, just like PU, so you have to compare similar densities. EPS has way more memory than PU, which is more brittle. You can feel it shaping, in which EPS wants to compress and spring back; whereas, PU will crumble cleanly. PU is way easier to sand and screen.

But think if you're constantly flexing your board while up and riding, which is going to last longer, PU/PE or EPS/epoxy? PU/PE is more brittle, both in the foam core and the resin. Microfractures and fatigue are real in carbon/epoxy frames in tennis rackets, and probably golf shafts (I don't golf) and rods.
Posted By: indodreams

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 05:14 AM

Possibly the myth of it being stiffer and having that chatter type feel and feeling every lump or bump on a wave comes from early EPS/Epoxy combos like the true pop outs like Proc Circuit boards in the 90s and even Surf Tech where they were very stiff composites.

IMHO people still hang onto these beliefs because at one point they were very true, and probably still are if you buy a EPS/Epoxy board that has a boat like build, but IMHO i don't find these characteristics true in the EPS/Epoxy boards i ride. (and my local is made up of rip banks that have lots of bumps and lumps even ion offshore days)

In regard to constant flexing of a board which all boards do when surfed, that could possibly be a reason why PU/PE feels very lively when new but over time tends to lose that feel because PU/PE is affected more by micro fractures and fatigue every time it flexes those little cells are getting crushed and not returning to there original shape, while EPS and Epoxy has more memory so over time its structure doesn't change as much.

Also doesn't polyester resin continue to harden with time?
Posted By: freeride76

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 06:53 AM

I still find the latest EPS/epoxy builds chattery and horrible to ride in bump.

It's no myth for me.
Posted By: Racer1

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 07:06 AM

I dislike EPS ride, but enjoy the durability.
I dislike PU durability, but enjoy the ride.
I LOVE XTR, both the ride and durability.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: indodreams
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.


Really?

My understanding is EPS foam retains its original shape from compression a lot better than PU foam.

For instance press in each foam before glassing and EPS will bounce back to original shape or close while PU foam will retain more of a finger mark.

Epoxy resin is generally softer and almost more rubber like than PE resin.

Hence why EPS/Epoxy is a good combo and less likely to retain the ding shape or crack when dinged because both are more likely to bounce back to original shape..

I would have expected??? if any extra resin was needed or composite construction used it was because the combo of EPS and Epoxy is lighter than PU/PE plus because of the more rubbery nature of Epoxy you are more likely to be able to create a composite construction that is strong but still allows the board to flex.

While id imagine a composite construction in PU/PE would create much more weight and be stiffer and less flex (risk of crack or delams) so not a good combo.

That was just what I've been told and understand and figured.



Ding resistance and buckle resistance are two different things. Yes EPS rebounds better than other foams but it is also inherently softer and easier to compress. On a typical compression ding scenario this would be a good thing as the foam and glass would rebound. Not so much in a board buckling scenario. I mentioned hoop strength and the I-Beam effect earlier. These come into play here. An I-Beam uses the center web to maintain the space between the top and bottom of the beam. This creates a very strong structure. A softer or more flexible foam like EPS will allow the foam between the top and bottom layers of glass to compress under a buckling load, the hoop strength of the rails breaks down and the board buckles or breaks. The foam core of the surfboard acts as the web in an I-Beam and helps maintain the hoop strength of the circular form of the rails and the I-Beam effect of the top and bottom skins.

Its all a give and take in the selection of materials.

You could also go to the extreme on the strength of the outer skin and eliminate the core material altogether and what you would end up with is the Aviso hollow carbon fiber board. (Do they still even make those?)

I know everyone hates Surftech but their technique and the work of Bert Burger at Sunova is probably the strongest method. In a nutshell they use light eps for the center core but the skin is made up of a layer of thin glass followed by Divinicel and topped with another layer of glass. Its in essense an I-Beal built on top of an I-Beam.
Posted By: retodd

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 03:06 PM

Pu vs. Any kind of eps

The pu rides consistent in all waves

Eps has to awesome boards , thin hpsb and these ride well in all conditions and most good surfers like them
High volume hybrids are also rad but unfortunately the thickness and foam qualities will make them bumpy in choppy waves
Posted By: crotchgrab

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: indodreams
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Originally Posted By: Mr J
Originally Posted By: GromsDad
...
Years ago I used to build and repair fishing rods on the side. In a way surfboards are a lot like fishing rods. Your high tech fishing rods are incredibly strong but when they fail they fail catastrophically much like the way a high tech surfboard snaps. High tech fishing rods usually fail at a spot where there was the tiniest of dings or abrasions on the blank, a minute flaw in the blank's construction or at a hinge point created where a guide is in contact with the blank or the user did something stupid. It only takes the slightest weak spot and the hoop strength of the rod is gone and it fails under load. Hoop strength in a fishing rod is very similar to the I-Beam effect of a surfboard created by layering fiberglass and resin over foam. The next time you break or buckle a surfboard take a real close look and you might find why it broke at that particular spot. A ding. A sand through. An inconsistency in the laps in the lam job. A kink in the outline or foil and so forth.


Cool GromsDad, so what sort of fibre/composite were the high end fishing rods? Carbon or glass or both? epoxy or polyester?

What do you make of the buckling tests varial did at the bottom of the following page?


http://www.varialsurf.com/infused-glass.html

Polyester comes out slightly stronger for the most popular HPSB build (4 + 4 + 4) and for team light (4 + 4). Those tests are vac bagged on varial, but gives us a clue as to hand lam on PU i.e don't expect epoxy to be noticeably stronger if at all for buckling resistance. Doesn't surprise me because we know epoxy is more flexible so would fold up more easily under compression. Also I remember being very disappointed with the strength of a single layer of 4oz vac bagged epoxy on EPS, but as soon as more layers were built up of epoxy it got strong.



The fishing rods I refer to are carbon and epoxy.

No doubt Varial vacuum infused is going to be an extremely strong board. I have not worked with their foam. I have one friend who's build a personal board with it and he loves it.

EPS need more glass because the core lacks compression strength on its own. My understanding is that Varial foam has a ton of compression strength compared to EPS and a bit more than PU.


Really?

My understanding is EPS foam retains its original shape from compression a lot better than PU foam.

For instance press in each foam before glassing and EPS will bounce back to original shape or close while PU foam will retain more of a finger mark.

Epoxy resin is generally softer and almost more rubber like than PE resin.

Hence why EPS/Epoxy is a good combo and less likely to retain the ding shape or crack when dinged because both are more likely to bounce back to original shape..

I would have expected??? if any extra resin was needed or composite construction used it was because the combo of EPS and Epoxy is lighter than PU/PE plus because of the more rubbery nature of Epoxy you are more likely to be able to create a composite construction that is strong but still allows the board to flex.

While id imagine a composite construction in PU/PE would create much more weight and be stiffer and less flex (risk of crack or delams) so not a good combo.

That was just what I've been told and understand and figured.



Ding resistance and buckle resistance are two different things. Yes EPS rebounds better than other foams but it is also inherently softer and easier to compress. On a typical compression ding scenario this would be a good thing as the foam and glass would rebound. Not so much in a board buckling scenario. I mentioned hoop strength and the I-Beam effect earlier. These come into play here. An I-Beam uses the center web to maintain the space between the top and bottom of the beam. This creates a very strong structure. A softer or more flexible foam like EPS will allow the foam between the top and bottom layers of glass to compress under a buckling load, the hoop strength of the rails breaks down and the board buckles or breaks. The foam core of the surfboard acts as the web in an I-Beam and helps maintain the hoop strength of the circular form of the rails and the I-Beam effect of the top and bottom skins.


Even the high density EPSs out there? The 2.1 or 2.3lb compressed marko? What does 45 degree bias weave S glass do in this situation, like what Stretch does?
Posted By: Sharkbiscuit

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/09/19 04:59 PM

Originally Posted By: retodd

High volume hybrids are also rad but unfortunately the thickness and foam qualities will make them bumpy in choppy waves


Belly/Vee
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/10/19 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: jkb
I'm surprised that Varial didn't publish strength test comparisons of similar density PU, EPS, and Varial blanks side by side. That would be the logical test to determine which foam is stronger. Perhaps they did and didn't like the results shrug

The glass schedule data is interesting though. Didn't expect PE to be as strong as it is.


I think what Varial is doing is excellent, I would like to see PU blank manufacturers lift their game and publish similar buckle test for their different stringer options. Its all very well offering blanks with different stringers for step ups, but we need to know how much better the different stringers are. At the moment we have no data on whether say a single wood veneer is stronger or weaker than a stringer of similar weight, but made from 3 plies.

However, I get your point jkb, if Varial are saying that their foam is better than PU, then show us the money!

Varial push their foam as stringer-less, so comparison would need to be stringer-less Varial against stringered PU with overall weight being the same. Would need to do a non infused comparison and infused, because I don't see builders rushing to do infused due to the complexity and cost. They do say 30% stronger on their foam page, but where did they get this data from and what exactly was the lam technique/glass schedule/stringer/PU density comparison.

Regarding polyester strength, GromsDad explains it quite well - there is more than one different type of strength. Buckling is like pushing two ends of a piece of cardboard together and watching it crease. Then there is tensile strength which would be grabbing both ends of the cardboard and stretching it until it snaps - sometimes a board does snap completely with buckle on one side and clean tension snap on other. Then there is impact strength - e.g certified bicycle helmet testing drops the helmet from a specified height onto a metal "anvil".

For impact I would expect epoxy to come out much stronger - we know from experience of banging our epoxy boards onto things such as rocks accidentally, that epoxy would do better for impact strength. For tensile strength I am not knowledgable enough to know which will do better.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/10/19 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By: crotchgrab


Even the high density EPSs out there? The 2.1 or 2.3lb compressed marko? What does 45 degree bias weave S glass do in this situation, like what Stretch does?


Higher density EPS is still not as strong in and of itself as P/U foam. EPS relies very heavily on the cloth and resin skins for its strength and that's precisely why you see all sorts of expensive and high tech fabrics and layups being used.
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/13/19 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: freeride76
I think pu/pe manufacturers were forced to up their game and improve durability due to asian surfboards, first Surftech, then FW who used improved durability as a selling point.


Ironically, pu/pe's got stronger, FW's got weaker and Surftechs went extinct.


Yes, there might be some improvement via competition from EPS/epxoy.

I have a couple of other possible suggestions. This wouldn't have affected Aus consumers, but in the US Clark foam used to have something of a monopoly on PU foam blank production. When they closed unexpectedly there was a mad scramble to start up some new blank production to fill the gap (as well as increased use of EPS). With several start ups and the end of the monopoly the US blank manufacturers lifted their game. Aus always had several competing blank companies and had a reputation for producing blanks with a harder outer crust than Clark.

My other thought is that with the arrival of the shaping machine the emphasis went from getting a hull rocker to match the shapers design to getting a deck rocker that matched the deck computer cut, thus machine shapes were more likely to preserve that hard outer crust. I don't have enough knowledge fo machine operating to know whether this could be happening or not. If GWS could come to the courtesy phone that would be great.

Myself I haven't noticed any big leap in PU/PE longevity. My last handshape from Aus lasted really well (about 18 to 20 years ago), others before that a bit variable in how they held up. A handshape from the US in early 2000's didn't do so well.
Posted By: GWS

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/14/19 04:42 PM

All right. I post less and less around here simply because everything turns into an argument. Not just this forum, all of them. But I got a personal request to spew on this thread and it's rainy, windy and cold. So here goes nuttin.

Originally Posted By: "personal message"
Hi GWS, I have a couple of question if you have a moment to answer on the thread:

https://forum.surfer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2897390#Post2897390


basically they are:

1. has foam strength increased since the demise of the Clark monopoly.

2. has maintaining that outer crust strength on the deck improved since the arrival of the shaping machine due to the emphasis of the machine on matching deck rocker. As opposed to the emphasis on hull rocker by hand shapers.


Cheers,




I don't know everything and I definitely don't have the time to start evaluating foam densities in scientific fashion. So instead I will just relay to you what my shapers tell me and additionally give you my own personal observations.

All PU foam gets softer as you descend in depth of cut. Even if you think it is undetectable to your hands, supposedly with the proper equipment you can detect the softening. (this from the head of one of our current blank manufactures over a beer) Clark foam got really soft as you went deeper. Modern formulations do better. A personal observation, I can feel differences in supposedly identical densities of identical blanks produced by any one manufacture. You cut enough of them, and batch to batch there is variation. Sometimes its hard/soft, sometimes the foam feels more powdery, (this is a scientific term) sometimes its crispy. (more science). Sometimes I can see the difference in the foam before I even touch it. But, net net, we are all better off since Grubby threw a tantrum and took the ball home. Good riddance.

2. I started to write something here going over hand shaping technique and the importance of blank rocker. Suffice it to say nobody wants to cut rocker into some slab. A smart shaper is going to pick a blank that provides him, as closely as possible, his bottom rocker.

Cutting boards, the most commonly used machines cut the deck of the board FIRST. Smart shapers listen to their cutter re blank/rocker recommendations. When I am picking a blank I am looking for the closest match possible to the deck rocker. I want that cut as shallow as possible. Firstly because it leaves me as much foam as possible on the bottom cut. This means I don't have a problem with rail rocker crust on a single concave, or just in general, missing material when I cut the bottom. The fastest, most efficient thing for me is a good match on the deck rocker with some room on the bottom. There are variations in rocker batch to batch. A little extra margin on the bottom gives me some room to deal with these variations, or uneven glue-ups, etc etc.

Now there is another aspect to this methodology. Sometimes shapers come to me with a blank they already own or a blank they chose and, it's a poor fit on their deck rocker. Lets say for instance that their design has more nose rocker than the blank they brought me. I will point this out to them. They will frequently ask me if I can cut it anyway. In that case, you need to remember I am cutting the deck first. So what do I have to do? The tail-block drop in cut on the deck will still be as shallow as possible. However, in order to get the deck-side nose block in the foam, I am going to have to hold the tail block high in the blank and tilt the entire design downward in the blank. This means that as the cut progresses from the tail it sinks deeper and deeper with the angled design until the blade ascends and hopefully just barely cuts in the deck-side of the nose block. This is a pain in the ass. I have to baby sit the cut and I may have to stop/restart the cut which means more time on a piece-work deal. If there is MORE nose rocker in the blank than I am anticipating, it can be worse. Crust on the bottom say 12-24 back. Not good. Hopefully that makes sense to you all. This would be easy to show you visually if I had you in front of the computer. It's a bit harder trying to give you a verbal representation of what I am talking about.

Overall, you are now getting a foam that maintains its strength to greater depths than what Clark provided. And if things are done right, you are removing less material with the machine from the deck than most/all hand shapers would routinely remove with a planer. I literally have thousands of blank files on hard drive. All of those are hands on blank maps/file construction. I don't even want to think about how much time that all represents.

Hope that helps and I hope I explained that clearly enough.

Posted By: rowjimmytour

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/14/19 05:46 PM

Stretch CFT holds up great I have a f4 that is most likely early '00 and still looks great and has plenty of pop. More recent got a CB custom with S glass and epoxy
Posted By: Mr J

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/15/19 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: GWS
...
Hope that helps and I hope I explained that clearly enough.



Yes you did. Your detailed response is much appreciated and after perusing it I have an idea of what you mean about the situation where your normal process of choosing an appropriate blank with appropriate deck rocker is undermined by a shaper forcing a blank on you.


Essentially you have confirmed what I was suggesting. I have had hand shaping lessons and also watched another hand shaper and know that although shapers do have their individual techniques, there is more emphasis on matching blanks hull rocker. It is more difficult for a shaper to adjust hull rocker on a blank than deck rocker without introducing inaccuracies into that all important planing surface and this is more likely to result in some sacrifice of deck crust strength. The "close tolerance" blanks sold by some manufacturers can only go so far in matching both deck and hull profiles of a refined design.

Whereas everything you are saying about the machine process is to match the deck rocker, or make the most of it in a situation where a specific blank has been forced on you, by say favouring matching the tail deck area which is where most delams from foot pressure occur.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/16/19 11:59 AM

GWS, Do you guys machine EPS? If so do beads tear out or is the cutter so fast and sharp the there is no tear out? Is your machine the type that uses a router type cutter or the type that uses a circular cutter blade?
Posted By: GWS

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/16/19 04:03 PM

It's not a problem. I'm using a circular blade. I've thought about converting to "router type" but so far, haven't done it. It is kind of a problem when people bring me an EPS longboard blank with a thick stringer. I have to slow the blade down for that thick piece of wood. This creates friction, which creates heat which creates melted EPS on the surface next to the stringer. Not a big deal I suppose. Again I have to baby sit the cut, listening to the tone of the machine and attempting to find the perfect speed to minimize the problem. Then with the slab wire-cut EPS blanks, because there is no contour on the deck I have to stack in more cuts and again, slow my speeds because I am removing more material with each pass. I've started up-charging for that because again, more time on the machine needs to equal mo money fo me.
Posted By: GromsDad

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/16/19 07:29 PM

Never thought about the possibility of blowing out the stringer with the blade style cutter. I would think though that the heat would still be an issue with a router style cutter too????
Posted By: shakajawea

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/16/19 10:30 PM

epoxy has kept its "new" feel longest for me, more than pu.. my favorites that i use heavily usually last about a year if they don't snap.. once they start feeling a little heavier and less lively i just craigslist them and move on
Posted By: GWS

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/17/19 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By: GromsDad
Never thought about the possibility of blowing out the stringer with the blade style cutter. I would think though that the heat would still be an issue with a router style cutter too????


The problem is a hard crusty melt that has to be removed via the finish shaping. You probably would still have the problem with a router style cutter, but the advantage would be you can put in more detail. Channel bottoms etc. With the round blade I can put in concaves obviously, but I am limited by the radius of the blade when it comes to channels etc.
Posted By: Retropete

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/17/19 05:53 AM

Hey GWS,
I recently bought a board which started out as a long forgotten triple stringer blank that was found when the factory near my house was shutting down. Covered in a thick black crust apparently and only when the shaper took the crust off was it revealed as a triple stringer. He reckons it was a bitch to shape as the blank was so hard. It was shaped into a modern take on a round pin 70's single outline with a 2+1.
Glassed with volan (though don't know the cloth weight).
Since it was so hard to shape I'm assuming it should well be stronger...thoughts?
Posted By: GWS

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/17/19 04:56 PM

That's cool. Yeah, I would think it would be stronger. Blanks aren't all that expensive compared to glass jobs, but I've salvaged a few cast-offs simply because I could and for some reason I wanted to. Sounds like your board will probably be weighty, but I'm sure you know that. My partner has this ancient poly wind surfer blank that is up in the racks. Probably circa 70's - 80's. The thing is a beast. Still hanging around. I have Ice9 blanks, both sugar based and Walker formula, Excel blanks, all kinds of weird stuff that has been abandoned in our racks. Sometimes I get an idea for a board I want and after I design the file I wander through the racks and see if anything unclaimed/left behind for a salvage operation. I have a 7'8" gun that was cut out a shaper's rejected gun cut and glassed with no logos. Board is a soldier!
Posted By: Retropete

Re: Board longevity/durability - 01/17/19 08:35 PM

Thanks for that. Yes it definitely is hefty. But I don't mind that since it will help with it's momentum in good waves. I've given it a test surf in some good Beachbreak waves and it's buttery smooth to ride.
It had crossed my mind that as the blank had become so hard maybe it was also more brittle but after reading all the analysis of different laminations on the other thread about Asian boards it probably is a non issue.
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