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#2601620 - 02/04/17 04:05 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: ifallalot]
BillyOcean Offline
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Registered: 01/06/17
Posts: 731
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
I also agree that more direct stimulus to average people is a good idea

Forgiving student loan debt would give the economy a big boost, for example

I think trump gets that there needs to be a greater stimulus at the bottom

Agree totally here, and I admit I'm still thinking in a more theoretic function while you're being more pragmatic.

I don't think making banking a public utility is the key either; rather forced breakup into smaller pieces and forcing competition is the key.


The problem is that other countries actively support their large banks

We have a dominant position in this industry currently. It's actually a strategic asset. Put aside that a few true assholes get massively rich from it. As a nation, this is a huge tool at our disposal.

If we were to break up the banks, they would not be able to compete with the other massive foreign banks

We would cede our dominant position in financial markets

This means we as a nation would be more likely to be at the whims of foreign nations to fund our economy

We already have a strategic weakness due to the massive trade imbalances we have with other nations

If we weakened our position with respect to capital markets as well, we would really be weakened

My point is not to say the current situation is fair. It's not

But we need to be very careful in how we address it

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#2601628 - 02/04/17 04:16 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: the janitor]
GDaddy Offline
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Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 16177
Loc: Carlsbad
We have plenty of existing law on the books to use to improve the overall performance at these big lenders and institutions, and in fact the smaller entities are forced into compliance because they can't afford to gamble with fighting them. I think the key is to crank down on the larger entities with the specific intent to force them to comply AT LEAST as well as the smaller entities do.

We don't need more law so much as we need more consistent enforcement of the existing laws. It's already illegal to lie cheat and steal. We don't need 1000 more regs that make it illegal to lie cheat and steal.

If you want to level the playing field and enable a more competitive environment you start at the top, not the bottom.

Rule of Law, Bro. It's a thing. How well or poorly we enforce that Rule of Law is just as significant to our social stability as that of any other society.


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#2601638 - 02/04/17 04:25 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: GDaddy]
BillyOcean Offline
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Registered: 01/06/17
Posts: 731
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
We have plenty of existing law on the books to use to improve the overall performance at these big lenders and institutions, and in fact the smaller entities are forced into compliance because they can't afford to gamble with fighting them. I think the key is to crank down on the larger entities with the specific intent to force them to comply AT LEAST as well as the smaller entities do.

We don't need more law so much as we need more consistent enforcement of the existing laws. It's already illegal to lie cheat and steal. We don't need 1000 more regs that make it illegal to lie cheat and steal.

If you want to level the playing field and enable a more competitive environment you start at the top, not the bottom.

Rule of Law, Bro. It's a thing. How well or poorly we enforce that Rule of Law is just as significant to our social stability as that of any other society.



Agree with this generally

However, the nuance here is that the very largest banks have been getting absolutely hammered by regulators since the financial crisis

In some respect, this goes with the territory for being too big to fail

However, the point is that we don't need to turn the screws harder at the top. They are already subject to disproportionate scrutiny at the top

On some level, there is a political game being played

The game is designed to obscure the fact that too big to fail is just a reality

There is no great solution to too big to fail, but the government does not want to level with the public about this

It's similar to other huge problems like entitlements--- there is no political incentive to be upfront about the magnitude of the issue and the lack of a real solution

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#2601666 - 02/04/17 05:05 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: ifallalot]
Driftcoast Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 1542
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
The problem is that the entire economy functions on credit. Blow that up, move back to where we're supposed to be.

And we would not be in Mad Max territory if it collapsed; it collapsed in 1929 and it got ugly but not dystopian.

The government should have let it fail in 2008. We would have been fine.


I would have been fine.

Not everyone though.

Maybe 33% of USA society does need to die of lack of support, but I don't know if I want to see my 1/3 of my neighbors take lots with them when things fall in on themselves.

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#2601667 - 02/04/17 05:06 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: ifallalot]
Driftcoast Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 1542
Originally Posted By: ifallalot
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
I also agree that more direct stimulus to average people is a good idea

Forgiving student loan debt would give the economy a big boost, for example

I think trump gets that there needs to be a greater stimulus at the bottom

Agree totally here, and I admit I'm still thinking in a more theoretic function while you're being more pragmatic.

I don't think making banking a public utility is the key either; rather forced breakup into smaller pieces and forcing competition is the key.


Credit union member?

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#2601670 - 02/04/17 05:09 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: BillyOcean]
GDaddy Offline
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Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 16177
Loc: Carlsbad
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
We have plenty of existing law on the books to use to improve the overall performance at these big lenders and institutions, and in fact the smaller entities are forced into compliance because they can't afford to gamble with fighting them. I think the key is to crank down on the larger entities with the specific intent to force them to comply AT LEAST as well as the smaller entities do.

We don't need more law so much as we need more consistent enforcement of the existing laws. It's already illegal to lie cheat and steal. We don't need 1000 more regs that make it illegal to lie cheat and steal.

If you want to level the playing field and enable a more competitive environment you start at the top, not the bottom.

Rule of Law, Bro. It's a thing. How well or poorly we enforce that Rule of Law is just as significant to our social stability as that of any other society.



Agree with this generally

However, the nuance here is that the very largest banks have been getting absolutely hammered by regulators since the financial crisis

In some respect, this goes with the territory for being too big to fail

However, the point is that we don't need to turn the screws harder at the top. They are already subject to disproportionate scrutiny at the top

On some level, there is a political game being played

The game is designed to obscure the fact that too big to fail is just a reality

There is no great solution to too big to fail, but the government does not want to level with the public about this

It's similar to other huge problems like entitlements--- there is no political incentive to be upfront about the magnitude of the issue and the lack of a real solution


I work in a finance-related occupation (relating to due diligence and safe/sound lending requirements) and from my experience the impact on these institutions has been much more dramatic on the smaller entities than the larger ones.

Bigger is more efficient due to the natural economies of scale, but IMO the consumers and the public would be far better served if there was more competition in the market; not less.

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#2601675 - 02/04/17 05:17 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: the janitor]
BillyOcean Offline
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Ok, fair enough.

I can see mid tier banks getting hit harder in some ways than others because they lack the resources to deal with the impact

But it's not like the top tier banks are going nuts

It's generally known that they are under constant scrutiny

The entire obama administration was generally hostile toward business

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#2601686 - 02/04/17 05:29 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: BillyOcean]
the janitor Offline
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Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 6748
Loc: north of the bridge
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean


Agree with this generally

However, the nuance here is that the very largest banks have been getting absolutely hammered by regulators since the financial crisis

In some respect, this goes with the territory for being too big to fail

However, the point is that we don't need to turn the screws harder at the top. They are already subject to disproportionate scrutiny at the top

On some level, there is a political game being played

The game is designed to obscure the fact that too big to fail is just a reality

There is no great solution to too big to fail, but the government does not want to level with the public about this

It's similar to other huge problems like entitlements--- there is no political incentive to be upfront about the magnitude of the issue and the lack of a real solution


Absolutely hammered? They have been getting relatively light fines for FIXING markets, light enough that said fixing, when factoring in the fines, was still very, very profitable. Regulatory capture is in full effect at that tier. No criminal charges for any executives of any of the top financial institutions since 2007, let alone convictions and prison time. There are solutions to this, just a lack of will.

I'm still trying not to hate the player and hate the game instead. Congress and the regulatory agencies have fallen down on the job and created this environment. And the irony of having two guys heavily backed by the financial sector supposedly coming up with a fix, post-crisis, is palpable.

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#2601690 - 02/04/17 05:34 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: the janitor]
BillyOcean Offline
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Registered: 01/06/17
Posts: 731
Ok, we can agree to disagree

I say hammered because of all the new regs that have been thrown at the banks in the last 8 yrs

The regs are very amorphous and essentially allow regulators wide discretion to raise compliance standards at will

This is why Cohn made the comment that personnel is policy when it comes to these regs

But I also get the point that there is reg capture

It's a complex problem on many levels

The govt is torn between nailing this sector to score points, but also currying favor to fund campaigns and for job opportunities

It's not really one way or another

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#2601700 - 02/04/17 05:52 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: the janitor]
GDaddy Offline
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Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 16177
Loc: Carlsbad
At any rate, the history over the last 35 years has demonstrated what happens every time the State gives the bankers more rope to play with. IMO the most evil thing Clinton and Bush43 ever did was to gut the banking regulatory agencies back in the early 2000s. I hold each of them personally responsible for the excesses that led to the 2005 meltdown.

There are a fair number of bankers and others in related occupations (including my own) who earned a bullet to the back of their heads but who have completely escaped justice due to malfeasance and non-feasance of the Executive Branch not doing its job.

The economic ruins these assholes created via outright greed and avarice will live on in our economy for many years to come. Obviously this wasn't all bankers and it wasn't all the other related parties, but it only takes a few assholes to ruin things for everyone else.


So yeah, In my view the demonstrated risks fully justify the additional supervision and enforcement. It's not fair to the companies that always operated on the up, but unfortunately we can't afford the repeat.

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#2601753 - 02/04/17 08:11 PM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: BillyOcean]
StuAzole Offline
Miki Dora status
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Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 3735
Originally Posted By: BillyOcean
Originally Posted By: GDaddy
We have plenty of existing law on the books to use to improve the overall performance at these big lenders and institutions, and in fact the smaller entities are forced into compliance because they can't afford to gamble with fighting them. I think the key is to crank down on the larger entities with the specific intent to force them to comply AT LEAST as well as the smaller entities do.

We don't need more law so much as we need more consistent enforcement of the existing laws. It's already illegal to lie cheat and steal. We don't need 1000 more regs that make it illegal to lie cheat and steal.

If you want to level the playing field and enable a more competitive environment you start at the top, not the bottom.

Rule of Law, Bro. It's a thing. How well or poorly we enforce that Rule of Law is just as significant to our social stability as that of any other society.



Agree with this generally

However, the nuance here is that the very largest banks have been getting absolutely hammered by regulators since the financial crisis

In some respect, this goes with the territory for being too big to fail

However, the point is that we don't need to turn the screws harder at the top. They are already subject to disproportionate scrutiny at the top

On some level, there is a political game being played

The game is designed to obscure the fact that too big to fail is just a reality

There is no great solution to too big to fail, but the government does not want to level with the public about this

It's similar to other huge problems like entitlements--- there is no political incentive to be upfront about the magnitude of the issue and the lack of a real solution


Hell's freezing over, because I agree with you on this issue. Obama went way too far in the effort to protect consumers and banks should largely be left alone. Perhaps contradictory, I also thought the bailouts were necessary.
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#2601843 - 02/05/17 07:29 AM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: StuAzole]
ifallalot Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 40488
Loc: HB, CA
Of course you feel like this

Consumers are all that matter. Anything else is a service for consumers and should be treated as such.

Your tax dollars went to save businesses that literally exist to separate you from your money. That's like paying someone to rob you
_________________________
Vox populi, vox dei

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#2601870 - 02/05/17 09:15 AM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: the janitor]
BillyOcean Offline
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Registered: 01/06/17
Posts: 731
Bailouts were totally necessary

Regs are necessary, but not to the overkill level that Dodd frank took it

Regarding the greed factor, in every economic expansion there comes a point where production outstrips demand

That happened with the supply of credit, but also with houses

Which was the cause of the implosion?

It's impossible to single out one thing

This type of cycle has played out so many times throughout history

It was not some nefarious plot

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#2601891 - 02/05/17 10:42 AM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: the janitor]
Autoprax Online   content
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 14664
Loc: Vagina Point
Fox is in the hen house.

Were the banks not making money in the last 8 years?

That is why they need to be deregulated?
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Originally Posted By: Boneroni
I seldom think autoprax is funny

Originally Posted By: TangTonic
. We don't care who you want to spray with cum, what kind of drugs you want to try, or that you think its funny to pull tricks on your students and beat women.

Originally Posted By: CCKeith
He isn't funny. When people who aren't naturally funny try to blend intelligence and booksmarts into humor they come off as trying too hard. It's off putting.

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#2601893 - 02/05/17 10:44 AM Re: Finally! Reforms coming to the financial markets [Re: Autoprax]
ifallalot Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 40488
Loc: HB, CA
Originally Posted By: Autoprax
Fox is in the hen house.

Were the banks not making money in the last 8 years?

That is why they need to be deregulated?


Oh yeah because if they are deregulated all of that money they're saving will trickle down roflmao
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